Getting started on a $200 000CDN basement studio?

[Beaver]

I've been all over this forum, and it is excellent. I've found a wealth of information. I do have a few questions that has not been fully addressed so far in my travels:

I am a multi-intrumentalist, who has always dreamed of owning a recording studio. I now have a career that pays very well (6 figs) a year, with ample time off (average 3 to 4 days off a week). Now the dream could be a reality.

I would like a near-professional quality studio. It should be versatile. I am a classically trained pianist who has played guitar in a punk band, worked with rappers and pop singers, and play bass in an experimental group (similar to tortoise) Interests span the entire spectrum

I plan on buying a home and using all of the basement, with the exception of a small rec area, for the studio. Numbers I have been crunching are in the neighborhood of $375 000 for the house (outskirts of Vancouver, or East van) and $200 000 for the studio (I'll be starting from scratch, my current gear is sub-par after being a student for 10 years!)

The purpose for the studio will be:
1. To give me and my (future) family a lifelong hobby
2. For me to finally learn the recording skills I have always desired
3. To give my friends and I the opportunity to spend the hours in a studio, experimenting with music the way we would like to;
4. To eventually supplement my income on my days off. This is #4 on the list, and not a priority. This will only be possible if I hire an engineer, unless I eventually gain enough experience, skill, and knowledge to go solo

I will begin looking for real estate in about 8 months to a year (when down payment is saved up). In the meantime, I would like to begin researching the topic of professional recording.

The questions:
-what type of house should i tell the real estate agent I am looking for? Anything to watch out for?
- I would like a recommended reading list, such as a current text book list from a college recording program.-Since I will be spending a fair amount of money on this, would you recommend hiring a consultant, and if so, how do I find one?


---Given the ballpark budget of $200 000 to spend on the studio (note: this is assuming the space is not a part of the budget), what should my priorities be? eg. $60 000 console, $25 000 renovations, $20 000 mics, $20 000 compressors/limiters.... etc? (Basically, I am beginning my research into consoles, and need to know what price range I should be looking into.)



Thank you for reading my post. My apologies if these questions have been answered over and over here. A few links to the appropriate pages would be greatly appreciated.

[DDev]

I'm probably not the best person to answer this but wanted to make sure you don't give up on this forum since it has been a few days without any replies. It looks like there was some kind of computer problem elsewhere on this site that may have shut it down for a few days (I've been out of town so haven't been here for a week or so).

Anyway, a couple of pointers that I can offer, then hopefully someone else will chime in that really knows the answers to your questions.

As far as the type of house goes, I would recommend you try to find something that has a fairly high ceiling between the basement floor and the floor above (9 ft or greater is preferable). Also, you will want to have easy access to the basement (either a walkout type of basement or a large easily navigable stairway). If you could find a basement which has a concrete floor above it, that would be ideal for isolation from the rest of the house (a friend of mine had a storage room constructed beneath his 3 car garage that is totally enclosed in poured concrete with 12 foot ceilings; I think that would be an ideal location that would have very minimal requirements to make it totally isolated from the neighborhood).

This site is primarily geared towards people who are DIY types, or at least want to get a solid handle on the theory and practical application of studio design and construction. For a project this size, you will probably want to hire an experienced consultant. John Sayers does provide his services for hire (and we all would recommend him). For a reference of another Canadian basement studio that John provided detailed design for, go visit BlueBear Sound (http://www3.sympatico.ca/bvaleria/bluebear.htm). I'm sure Bruce would be more than willing to discuss his experiences with you if you contacted him, as well as seeing the studio on his site.

As far as equipment goes, there are so many choices that it is difficult to make recommendations without spending more time getting to know your needs and wishes in more depth. I would recommend, once again, that you contact Bruce Valeria at BlueBear Sound to discuss this. He has a solid handle on gear requirements for project studios and I think his setup is probably fairly similar to what you may be shooting for.

Good luck,
Darryl.....

[sonusman]

You should really consider hiring a consultant. It appears that you don't have that much experience with recording studios, or high end gear. It would be VERY easy for sellers with no scruples to take advantage of that, and you wind up buying juke that you don't need/paid too much for/beyond what you "need".

First on the list. Hire John Sayers to "consult" on building your recording/mixing rooms. John is pretty good at this stuff, and I am sure he is a fraction of the cost of some of the "huge named" studio designers. I know for a fact he will be happy to work with you, and will negotiate quite a fair deal for you.

Next, you need to get with somebody that has done a LOT of recording and used a variety of gear and start talking about the capabilities you want/need, as well as the type of quality you desire in your recordings. Man, you can spend a LOT of money on stuff that falls short or is beyond your needs/quality level desired. This person will also have a clue about what is fair prices to pay, and will know all about the "hidden" costs of gear purchasing (such as cabling, patch bays, maintnance costs, etc....)

Don't go at this based on BBS advice for room designs/gear purchases. While bbs advice is helpful, you really need to deal with a person that you can really articulate your needs to and isn't just going to give the "this is what I use" feedback. Again, you want a consultant that has used a large variety of gear so when you say " I want a good gritty drum sound", he will know to suggest API preamps! That kind of thing.

Again, talk to John about room design. You can get him on-board (with a retainer I suppose) before you buy a house, and he might be quite helpful in suggesting things to look for, and once you get your place, he will design a beautiful sounding room for you.

Then find a gear consultant. Preferrably somebody that has worked on some big consoles, with lot's of class A discreet gear, and has recorded SOMETHING that at least approaches major label type of sound. You have to be careful about some "pro's" on these BBS's, cause some of them really haven't worked with that much gear in the past. Again, John might be helpful. I would be willing to talk to you about that (contact me...I just noticed that you are just up the road from me in Vancouver BC), or just look around on some of the BBS's for some of the "pro's", again, being careful. "Pro" only means they make money doing it, NOT that they are any good.

Good luck.

[Jon Best]

Good advice all around.

I have never seen a reason *not* to use John Sayers, as he's given some great advice around here, and I understand has built some wonderfull rooms.

If you decide to go with someone who would have an easier time coming to look at the place, I'd look up Wes Lachot in North Carolina- he has some great ideas, and has also designed some very good studios. I like his approach, as he pays a lot of attention to ergonomics and vibe as well as the mechanics of good sound.

As far as gear, anyone and their brother can sell you a bunch of crap. If you're going to be running your own studio, however, you really need the gear to play to your own strengths, weaknesses, and preferences. My main advice (other than finding someone you trust to guide you through it), is to a) don't buy anything you can't think of a concrete reason to own, b) don't buy anything because somebody else likes it if you don't think it will fit your workflow, and c) with that kind of budget, don't buy anything to tide yourself over. Buy good stuff up front. Find a local tech. Don't buy more than two of anything to start out with.

If nothing else, *** save out $50K+ from the initial build for fine tuning and eventual gear purchases, as your tastes will develop and change!! ***

The most important decisions you are going to make will happen before you spend a cent. Among these will be;

1) whether you plan on making money with the studio
- do you need certain things for marketability that you might not otherwise buy?

2) what format you want to record to.
- this one has a lot of considerations, from what you prefer to who you may need to be compatible with, either in a commercial sense or for portability of your own projects

3) how you want to mix
- same considerations as above, with added weight towards your own comfort level. Mouse ok? big analog board *really* worth the tech support and space considerations? or do you think it'd just look cool?

4) what you are going to be recording most of the time, or priorities.
- there will *always* be compromises between room size and number, how many iso's, how big the control room needs to be for either comfort or sound, and a million other factors.

5) your aesthetic preferences.
- you need, first and foremost, before any gear considerations, a space you like and feel comfortable and creative in. This may not be the million-blinking-lights mothership look of the Hit Factory, or wherever.

I have revisited my own studio (now defunct, for glass-ceiling-in-my-market reasons) in my mind many times with the 'if I knew then what I know now' mentality, and I think everyone probably does- *everyone* could have saved a shitload of money by waiting to see what they wanted before they spent. Very few are long-viewed enough to do so.

Last but not least, just pretend you have $120K only. You'll end up spending the whole $200K, but with luck, you may not go over.

[Jon Best]

---Given the ballpark budget of $200 000 to spend on the studio (note: this is assuming the space is not a part of the budget), what should my priorities be? eg. $60 000 console, $25 000 renovations, $20 000 mics, $20 000 compressors/limiters.... etc? (Basically, I am beginning my research into consoles, and need to know what price range I should be looking into.)

Oh, btw, I wouldn't spend anything like $60K on a console with that budget. If you decide you need an analog console, then I'd probably be looking at something like the Audient, as a decent desk that won't break the bank. If you can find a good tech, then venturing on to the used market could make sense, if you set some budget aside for a thorough going-through, a probable recap, and perhaps some mods. I'd be looking at a D&R, personally. Wonderful, clean boards. I would then get the color through an assortment of outboard, which is going to do you more good than a more expensive console.

Goddamit, I can't help myself.

I'd say the above console and a Radar 24 with the 2nd or 3rd level converters would be a great way to start out, then add the other stuff a la carte.

DO NOT skimp on the monitors or the acoustics, because if they're not right, the rest is shit anyway. MAKE DAMN SURE you listen to any monitors you might buy, because everyone likes different things- people I respect love monitors I can't stand, and vice versa.

[Beaver]

Thanks for the input everyone!

I have another question... I obviously have little experience with the engineering side of music recording. As a musician, I have always concerned myself much more with practicing and writing than with gear. Though I have been involved in several recording sessions, I would usually show up, play my part, and let the pros take over.

My question to you would be how do I gain the skills, knowledge and most importantly experience to become a proficient engineer? I would be willing to volunteer my time in a professional studio if it allows me to be in a studio environment, interacting with pros and learning a thing or two on the way. A part time college course would be perfect if one exists. I have been reading books, but without some practical experience, It has been a difficult, dry learning process.

It will be a year or so before I can begin this project and I don't want to go into it blindly.

Making money on this project will be a secondary use of this studio. It's mostly for personal projects. If I could get 3 or 4 paying days a month, It would certainly help pay for the cost of the setup but I plan on doing a fair amount of free work for various people and organizations that I am involved with.

As for gear, I'm thinking that fully digital will be the way to go, since I'm a newbie and user friendliness should probably be high on my list of priorities, as well as maximum versatility. My understanding of analog is that for versatility, I will need an overwhelming variety of different equipment. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Since I'm such a newbie, I'm thinking I'll most likely begin my project by investing in design/construction and good mics, effects, etc. And beginning with a used cheaper console until I'm experienced enough to know what I want/need, at which point I will upgrade.

[Jon Best]

'Fully digital' and 'used cheaper console' don't really go together- I would go the simple,clean console route myself, with a digital recorder (radar24 and D&R Dayner would be my vote).

Thing about versatility is, it's going to be a *long* time before you, and probably most anyone you hire, is *really* being held back by the actual gear if you have;

- first and foremost, a good sounding, fairly neutral space,
- good monitors you're comfortable with,
- a digital recorder with reasonable editing capabilities,
- a clean analog board with decent headroom and no serious issues
- a good assortment of mics (don't need any top dollar, client pleasing mics for a while, probably, if ever, as long as you make good choices)
- 8-12 varied channels of different, good quality compression,
- a couple/few flexible outboard EQ's,
- a couple/few high quality outboard mic pre's that compliment each other (i.e., a neve-ish pair, an API-ish pair, and a something very clean)
- a reasonably flexible headphone mix system, and
- a really good feeling space/atmosphere.

If you can't make a record with that, you can't make a record with anything.

[Guest]

Again, thanks for the input.

While I've got your attention, I'll ask for some more advice if ya don' mind...

Having said that this (owning semi-pro recording studio) is a long term dream, and having established that I am basically a dumass with more money and time than experience and knowledge, I need to know how to become more wise in the ways of recording.

My plan in the next 1 1/2 years before I will be able to begin work on an actual studio:

1. Drop a few $ (5-6 k) on some gear and begin recording/experimenting on my own
2. Become more involved as a session musician, paying attention this time to what the heck the engineers are doing and what gear is being used.
3. Bring some of my own stuff to be mastered professionally and solicit advice from said pros.

any more advice would be greatly appreciated.


I feel obligated to reinforce the fact that this will be a project studio primarily for my own expermentation and maybe eventually for hire. I assume my clientelle would be primarily small time bands looking to make a demo, as that is the only type of recording that I am so far familiar with.

thanx again!!

[Jon Best]

That all works just fine. Decide if you want to get into computer based recording at all (for me, it was the way to go- generally, the records I made in Nuendo with decent front end sounded better than the ones I made in the same room with an MCI JH24 2" and Quad 8 Virtuoso large format console).

If you're comfortable with computers, figure out which one you like better, pc or mac, and buy a system with 8-12 inputs. Experiment until you're blue in the face, and pay some good local engineers to come in to your room periodically and help you set up for tracking or mix a song or two. Ask a lot of questions, and spend a few weeks after they leave messing around with their suggestions. At some point, you'll have your own set of 'tools' in your head that you are comfortable with, and you'll have more direction as to what you may want to buy.

Again, thanks for the input.

While I've got your attention, I'll ask for some more advice if ya don' mind...

Having said that this (owning semi-pro recording studio) is a long term dream, and having established that I am basically a dumass with more money and time than experience and knowledge, I need to know how to become more wise in the ways of recording.

My plan in the next 1 1/2 years before I will be able to begin work on an actual studio:

1. Drop a few $ (5-6 k) on some gear and begin recording/experimenting on my own
2. Become more involved as a session musician, paying attention this time to what the heck the engineers are doing and what gear is being used.
3. Bring some of my own stuff to be mastered professionally and solicit advice from said pros.

any more advice would be greatly appreciated.


I feel obligated to reinforce the fact that this will be a project studio primarily for my own expermentation and maybe eventually for hire. I assume my clientelle would be primarily small time bands looking to make a demo, as that is the only type of recording that I am so far familiar with.

thanx again!!

[BradleyF]

Hey Beaver,

If you're serious enough about all of this, I would be willing to donate a portion of time to helping out with some gear acquisition education. I've recently been a major player in demolition/reconstruction/soundproofing/etc on a Canadian project in Montreal and as the sticky notes, I'm really looking forward to continuing in this industry.

Let me know if you're looking for help,

Brad

BradleyF@musician.org

[Beaver]

Bradley:

At tis point, I have only recently had the means and idea to consider a project such as this, but I am quite serious about the notion. It's something I've always wanted to do as I have many creative ideas that are being held back due to my lack of gear/available like minded musicians/time in studio to spend noodling and experimenting.

Probably within 2 years I will begin work on this project. For now, I am doing the initial research and self education into the recording end of music. As of now, the extent of the project is undecided.

Only thing for sure is: 1. I will have a decent studio in my home, and 2. I'll have enough time and money to do it properly.

It's quite possible, however, that I simply decide to just get a little mackie d8b and invest more money in beer and a pool table simply so I can have a good time recording friends. ya never know.

Admittedly, it may be partly a vanity project as well, like owning a nice car. Though it's neat to have a sweet car, I'm not that into cars. Owning a nice studio in your basement is well, just really cool.

I'll shoot ya an e-mail for some more advice, etc within 8 months, when I know for sure what I want (and when I am settled with a new property)

Meantime, looking at a few courses in town just to get me started. Talked to Columbia Academy and Arts Institute Burnaby. Both said they could work something out with me if I'm just interested in a couple of their courses, without committing to the entire program. It'll at least allow me to get a little base knowledge and maybe meet some cool instructors.

[Brad]

Beaver,

Good luck with the classes, I'm sure they can be very helpful to someone who's thirsting for the knowledge. In the meantime, let me know if you need any assistance. I'll be in Vancouver sometime before Spring.

Brad

[timwheat]

Wow, just read through your post here. $200,000 for your studio huh? I'm getting a job in Canada. Anyway, I just wanted to address a couple of the things you said. I've been recording for 5 or 6 years now and just recently began recording on my own and trust me, I'll never know it all and nobody I've ever met has. Some of the things I read disturbed me though. Spending all that money on compressors and consoles etc. seems like an enormous investment considering you don't know how to use them yet. I've worked in recording studios with massive amounts of equipment and made really good sounding stuff. I've also worked in my basement with my Behringer 3282 and my delta 1010, and made really good sounding stuff. Is there a difference? Most definitely, but the Delta 1010 stuff is the stuff I've heard on the radio and nobody seemed to be the wiser. The point is, though, that for a beginner it might be better advised to throw in a measley $2-5000 and record/produce/master until you're blue in the face. Its hard to truly understand everything you read or are taught until you're doing it yourself. Another personal preference I would tell all beginners, in this day and age, is to start digital. It may be my own personal opinion, but digital is so much faster and generally easy to use. Less expensive in the long haul too. Plus, recording into your PC allows you to master much more easily, without having to use all of those outside components. I'd still have myself an outside compressor or two for your vocals mostly, but you'll learn more concepts more cheaply on a digital scale. I have Waves platinum and those plug-ins are amazing and really help you to understand what compression is and how to use your reverbs and so on and so forth. Like I said, I've been doing this for years and I still feel stupid a lot of the time so don't get frustrated. Practice and repetition are key. If you can find a studio to hang out at and watch and learn that would definitely be helpful. I always felt like I was getting in the way though. Taking classes could be helpful, but I've always been a bigger fan of experimentation on your own. Its more fun too. Alright, I"ve gotta go. I hope anything I've said in here is helpful. later

Tim

[flygrade]

i would agree with timwheat so far as starting kinda small...60 grand for a console and 20 grand each on mics and compressors seems kinda far reaching for a beginner...for a good read check out tweak's guide at www.tweakheadz.com

[Beaver]

I understand your concerns. The plan is to start small til I am more knowledgeable about the subject. The large project is a long term goal. I will start by simply buying some cheap, simple equipment and begin recording myself, friends, etc. I plan on eventually expanding with the help of some more experienced engineer friends, once I understand what I want to accomplish and how to do it.

For now, my plan now is to look for a house where a basement studio is possible, and begin investing in construction. With the proper environment built, I will be able to increase the quality of my equipment later on as my experience, skills, and knowledge improve.

I have always had talent as a musician, but although I have many creative ideas, I have always found that I lack the creative drive to 'express myself' in writing music, and therefore I have always considered myself as more of a craftsman than an artist (I relate more with the inspired furniture builder than with the purist sculptor). I enjoy bringing out the best in the artistic abilities of others. I have much experience as a musical director in theatre, and as a back up musician for live bands and some recording musicians.

Becoming involved in recording is the best way I can see to use my musical talents. Owning my own studio is the only way I can see to do this, expecially since I have no experience and will always be part-time.

Thanks everyone for the advice. You've given me some good direction on where to start, and where I would like to end up.