Recycling Patio Doors - Good or bad idea? Chicago, IL

jgreen77 · Post by **jgreen77** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 1:42 am

I have 2 (two) approximately 4' x 8' (probably a bit smaller) solid wood framed double paned patio doors. These doors were free, and I would love to use them as my control room window. They are here in Chicago, so I know they are very well insulated (double paned glass w/ UV treatment thermo-insulated type deal).

Is there any install method that will allow me to use them I could break them down & use the raw materials, but is it worth my while? I have read here that double paned glass is not a good idea. So do I tear them down, use as is, or start looking elsewhere for some 2nd hand materials I can afford (which means free).

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:44 am

That would depend on how much isolation you hope to achieve, whether your CR wall is double framed or single, etc - that's a really LARGE size for a window, the isolation will be WORSE with large panes (all other factors being equal) -

If the panes are sealed thermopane, I'm not sure if you even CAN separate the two glasses; depends on the manufacturer, some made one piece SEALED hollow glass panels while others used separate seals and spacers, etc -

If you use TWO of these DOUBLE panes, be aware that it's not the end of the earth; but you WILL have specific frequencies that get through a LOT easier. Calculating these frequencies is beyond my meager math mentality. Generally, you'll get better midrange isolation but worse lower frequency isolation.

If "free" is important to you, it may be worth the trade-off; unless you'd rather find a free web-cam or two and set up a video link between the two areas... Steve

jgreen77 · Post by **jgreen77** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:52 am

Thank you for the advise. I think for my purpose, they will work for now. How does this sound: I will use both windows and mount them an inch or two apart, each on a slight angle (V-shaped) with some form of seal - probably a rubber and caulk combo.

I could make the visible portion smaller and possibly put some material between the two panes - something like that rock wool maybe? I have only used MLVB and craft-faced fiberglass insulation so far, but I am open to ideas.

Jeffrey Green
Abbott Rubber Co.
p: 847.952.1800 ext 3018
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knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 2:57 am

http://www.audio-muziek.nl/audiotechniek/acoustics.pdf

Specifically, the one about tilted glass...

And a couple of sketches - HTH... Steve

jgreen77 · Post by **jgreen77** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:04 am

That's awesome - thanks for your help.

Also, I have all of those rubber products here at work (from 1/32" to 2" thick) and can fabricate them to any shape & size I want (that's what we do all day, amongst other things). I think I have a pretty good set-up for my purposes.

jgreen77 · Post by **jgreen77** » Fri Jun 24, 2005 3:41 am

I just speed-read that entire paper & printed it for my info-binder. I have already have two perpendicular walls that form the barrier between my CR and my "live" room that from an "L" in one corner of the space. The construction again if 1/2" drywall, 1/8" TH MLVB and standard 16" off center studs with craft faced fiberglass insulation. I think I may build two more walls on the inside of the CR so I have the simple double stud partition as shown in that paper you linked in your last post. I can then insert one of each of my windows into each wall almost 12" inches apart (re: the diagrams above).

Do you feel this is an acceptable construction technique, keeping in mind my virtually $0 budget remaining, and the fact that I have a majority of the material on hand? This would also enable me to put another ceiling between the two spaces for almost no extra cost.

PS: is there a list of tech terms I should study to better describe my project and also, is there any web-sites were I can plunk in my space dimensions and make a floor plan? I am not a computer graphics wiz and don't believe I even have a program on my computer to draw it.

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 5:03 am

Budget or no budget, the best isolation with least materials will ALWAYS be mass-air-mass - this means that if you have a "normal" stud wall with some sort of paneling on both sides, you're DONE. If that's not enough isolation, you would need to remove the paneling on one side and beef things up. Staggered studs or resilient channel on ONE side of a partition improves things over single studs, but ONLY for higher frequency - bass isolation is almost entirely due to mass-air-mass, so improving bass TL requires wider air spaces and more mass on either side of that air space.

What it sounds like you're asking is if double frames will help; if done tightly and caulked with acoustic rated caulk, then yes. And putting the windows, even double pane thermo windows, further apart, WILL help TL across the frequency band.

Draw programs - are you using a Mac or a PC? Steve

jgreen77 · Post by **jgreen77** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 6:24 am

knightfly wrote:
What it sounds like you're asking is if double frames will help; if done tightly and caulked with acoustic rated caulk, then yes. And putting the windows, even double pane thermo windows, further apart, WILL help TL across the frequency band.

Draw programs - are you using a Mac or a PC? Steve

You are right - I will have double walls, a few inches apart for my CR. They will be constructed like an open face sandwich - with the insulation & studs facing each other, and the MLVB and drywall as the finishing layers on the outside. I want the windows as far apart as I can get, so the window wall may have 8" of airspace and the solid wall more like 4". I am going to use an acoustic caulk and seal it the best I can, but I am waiting on a response from another thread before I buy any caulk.

I have some construction skills, but not much technical knowledge, so this site is great. Pretty soon I will get into wiring, before I go ahead and finish the walls with mud & tape. I plan on caulking the 1st layer of drywall I have up now for sound, and installing one more layer of drywall layer to mud, tape to look aesthetically pleasing. Should I attach that second layer on that "resilient channel" I have read about?

I use a PC.

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:16 am

NO, NO, and NO on the resilient channel; this is NOT an "add-on", even though 99% of remodeling contractors do it that way (and then bitch that it doesn't work) - keep saying the mantra, "mass, air, mass" - your description of wall construction early in the last post follows that. Adding RC and another layer of wallboard makes that into a 3-leaf wall, which would LOWER the isolation at low frequencies by probably 10-12 dB or more.

If you want to ADD something, just add more layers of wallboard DIRECTLY on the existing layers. No More Air Gaps...

Also, any reason you're planning on spending big money on MLV when it costs about 8 TIMES as much as another layer of drywall? Steve

jgreen77 · Post by **jgreen77** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 7:29 am

I used the MLVB because I already bought it! And thanks for the advise, I will just hang my drywall as is.

Also, I got the MLVB for about $0.64 per sq ft, which was not too bad... now I know for the future...

Any verdict on the Caulk Talk?

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Tue Jun 28, 2005 9:49 am

From the REFERENCE section, listed under Caulk and Insulation

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=2045