New House and New Studio from scratch. Help!

[sharward]

Hope i helped.

Not only have you helped, Sir, but you we may shower you with appreciation in the form of electrical questions from this point forward!

Thanks very much for helping us keep ToneMonkey's house in a "not burning down" state.

[ToneMonkey]

Ok, thanks so much. I'm getting the same concerns from my electrician now so I know not to go that route. No insulation around the can.
Now it has also been determined that the cans are non negotiable. They are there and I have to live with it.
But that's what makes this fun. Now I get to think of creative ways to work around this.
I'm hoping it's ok to still put insulation in the kitchen cieling but keep it about a foot away from the can. I know this may not help much since there is a gaping hole in the drywall, but every little bit helps right?

I'm really thinking it's going to result in a step up in the studio. I have no problem building an additional floor on top. I just need to learn how to go about it now.

On a side note, I ordered the R-Channel from Auralex yesterday. Now to show my contraactor how to use it.

Ok, more to come.
Thanks for all the advice and thanks for stopping me from burning down my new home. Hmmm.. that would be a fun one to explain to my wife...

Thanks again everyone.

[rocktavian]

check out quietsolutions.com

they arent cheap but they have some relly nice solutions from a special plywood to stc50 drywall.

[Dan Fitzpatrick]

also http://kineticsnoise.com/

[sharward]

check out quietsolutions.com

Actually, don't. Read this thread about QuietSolutions stuff.

Remember: STC doesn't mean squat for studios.

[rocktavian]

i just figured he could put their special plywood on his floor to keep nois from bothering the kitchen but please explain as i thought stc had alot to do with studios

[Dan Fitzpatrick]

stc is a good rough guide, but it doesn't take into account frequencies below 125 hz. so it doesn't tell us anything about a barrier's low-frequency performance.

to really compare construction methods or proprietary methods/products you need to see a curve of the TL at frequencies from 50hz up. (it would be nice if you had from 20hz up but that data is rarely found).

also because of the way stc is derived two walls with wildly different TL curves can end up with the same STC number.

so use stc to weed out the obvious good from the bad, and then examine the TL curves along the freqeucny spectrum to really do a good comparison.

stc DOES take into account the way the human ear hears low freqencies less, and weights low frequency sound less. so it does try to incorporate the "annoyance factor" not just raw dB numbers.

also on average the frequencies below 125 hz are roughly predictable, because the curve tends to continue along the same slope. but stc ignores what are sometimes dramatic abberrations in performance at the lower frequencies, which would be seen as 10 or sometimes 15dB humps or more likely dips in performance.

dan

[sharward]

Nice explanation, Dan.

For those not familiar with the abbreviation "TL," it stands for "Transmission Loss," i.e. soundproofing. High TL = good soundproofing.

[ToneMonkey]

Well what I've decided is ...I am going to float the floor. That way I can safely isolate the studio from the kitchen below and everyone should be happy. Now, I've done a little reading and it sounds so simple that I'm afraid I've missed something.
From what I've gathered I understand the process as follows...
For a 112 sq/ft room I'll need roughly less than 100 U-boats from Auralex.
I then plan on putting 2x6s on 16 or maybe 24 inch centers in the U-boats, then filling between with insulation. I hear everyone talk about rockwool but if I understand correctly, fiberglass insulation works just as well? Next I make sure that none of the 2x6s are touching any part of the wall and a space is left so that even the drywall won't make contact.
Finally I plan to sheet it with 3/4 inch MDF and then do a carpet with padding. Ok... what does everyone think? Did I miss a little.. a lot, or am I totally insane? Thanks!

[Dan Fitzpatrick]

TM,

i doubt you want to go this route.

the first thing is, it is going to be extremely heavy. are you planning to support the inner walls and ceiling on this floating floor? have you calculated what this structure plus all your equipment/furniture is going to weigh? can your house's floor support this?

not without major upgrading of structure, is my guess. maybe steel beams. maybe not. but serious upgrading. would you put a 500 gallon hot tub on the second floor without reinforcement, i don't think so. this is a question for an engineer.

but if you do get an enginner and decide to do it safely, make sure that you make the inner and outer leaves of your floor very thick, at least 3 or 4 sheets of 3/4 inch plywood each. if you do this and have a large (say 8 inch) airspace you MAY get the cavity resonance down to a reasonable level. you can calculate this based on the actual materials and airspace you are using.

see this link for a good calculator
http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?t=1522

if you create a cavity with too high a resonance, it makes the floor LESS soundproof at that frequency and the surrounding frequencies, and can mean that you wasted your time, money and headroom. below resonance frequency, the floating has no effect. so you must keep the resonance frequency low by making the leaves heavy and the airspace big.

dan

[sharward]

Ditto everything Dan said.

Plus, before you consider using the U-boats, see my post in the "Mason Industries' FSN Floating Floor Concrete Slab Test Data" thread... Especially the semi-hidden document that clarifies the lack of testing on U-boats.

For the record, I'm not knocking all Auralex products... But I am knocking the U-boat product due to its lack of test data.

I'm not against floating floors in general. I definitely debated the merits of one in my project for a very long time, as my project thread will surely attest. However, if you are under the impression that they are simple and easy, then if I may be frank, you have more studying ahead of you.

[ToneMonkey]

Well, concerning the weight, I've talked with my contractor and he spoke with our engineer, and it shouldn't be a problem. Fortunately when the truss system was put into place it was beefed up to support a fireplace feature that was then canceled after the fact. And the support truss continues to run directly under the studio. The weight on this side of the house is very minimal and there is a support column in the kitchen as well.
I don't plan on placing any walls or ceiling support on the floating floor either. It will just be placed within the perimeters of the walls and built onto the existing floor. Granted there will be some heavier equipment in there, but no 300lb fronts or anything.

Here's an inventory of what WILL be in there.
Workstation Desk
Computer and thin monitor (not the back breakers).
EMX5000 20 channel mixer.
VDrums
2 60lb Powered Monitors.
Yamaha Keyboard
A few guitars.
One 112 combo amp.
16 space Rack Cabinet half full.
One cabinet with misc cables, mics, books software etc..

So this will probably be the heaviest room on that side of the house.
Still, the support underneath was expected to support several times this load.


Ok, now that I am confused by outer leaf thickness, I obviously have more reading to do. And it looks like I've found quite a bit more to study.
Thanks for the links to your link sharward. In that thread I found several more floating floor links. Wow, this is deep.

Thanks again!

[ToneMonkey]

Ok, well I think I have a little better understanding of things now and feel a bit more prepared.
I'm not going with U-Boats anymore. I've actually contacted a supplier of 60 Durometer 1/2 inch EPDM, who is willing to cut it into 2" by 2" squares for me. I'll receive the quote today. Also I've spoken directly with the guy who engineered our floor trusses and have a BIG reassurance on the weight factor. So much so that he has become interested in the project and is giving the thumbs up on double drywall and a double layered subflooring. It seems that the 8" by 16" engineered truss that runs dead center under my studio room is supported on each end by two 4x6" posts that run straight down through the basement to the poured foundation. Now I'm wondering just how much more I'll benefit from another layer of drywall and another layer of subfloor. I'm just concerned because my room is steadily shrinking and it's not that big to begin with. I don't think the song "30 days in the hole" was creatively written while in a solitary confinement chamber. And I'm afraid that's what I'm creating. Not much I can do about it now though.

My next question is should I fill the floor with so much insulation that it is a little bit tight in there or should it be loose and fluffy, or actually leave a small air gap in the top of each chamber directly below the subflooring?

Thanks everyone!

[sharward]

I'm not going with U-Boats anymore. I've actually contacted a supplier of 60 Durometer 1/2 inch EPDM, who is willing to cut it into 2" by 2" squares for me.

Take it from me, who ran with the EPDM recommendation from the get-go, purchased a chunk of it, and then paid several hundred dollars to have it compression tested at a machine shop: Don't use a product that hasn't been tested by an independent lab and has proven itself.

Yes, that includes (or, should I say, excludes) EPDM.

There may be some folks on this board who will disagree with me here. This is just my opinion. Stick with products that are proven and have the testing specs and documentation to prove it.

For alternatives, check out Mason Industries and Kinetics Noise Control. They've got a lot of test results.

I don't have time for untested products for my project -- especially something that can't be undone, like floating floor pucks. Do you?

Just my opinion...

[ToneMonkey]

Thanks shar,
I'll definitely look into those before I buy anything.
Man this thing is moving so fast it's hard to keep up.
The drywallers started yesterday and are quickly closing in on my room.
Fortunately the R channel will be here tomorrow, and after meeting the drywall guys I'm happy to hear that they have done tons of soundproofing and channel installations. The guy seems really excited about the project too so he's agreed to put double drywall in the room and R channel on the walls of the adjacent rooms. Yes! This is starting to pan out.

Now to figure out where to get my pucks, decide on a board height for my floor (2X4 or 2X6) and order some puddy packs.

Thanks again!