I believe in Acoustic Sciences Tube Traps.....

[mika]

What are you saying? I don't understand....

this was a answer to this

They just don't work. No absorption, no reflection. non, nada

this messurments show that they work. not as good as we need, but they do absorb something.

by the way:
i like your interview in bobby owsinski's book
cheers
mka

[Bruce Swedien]

What are you saying? I don't understand....

this was a answer to this

They just don't work. No absorption, no reflection. non, nada

this messurments show that they work. not as good as we need, but they do absorb something.

by the way:
i like your interview in bobby owsinski's book
cheers
mka

Mika......

Thanks for your kind words....

Of course they work... And of course they are not as good we need.

When I was first building my studio in Minneapolis in 1956, egg cartons glued to the wall were mighty impressive to this kid beginning to record stuff.... I will never forget how they helped the sound!

Bruce

[timogiodeson]

OK, but all of you agree that eggs curtains sounded good?

No, we don't. They just don't work. No absorption, no reflection. non, nada (well, a bit in the higher frq regions.. but forget it). It's a firehazard too. What a pitty. Forget about it, NOW

read this:
http://www.acousticsfirst.com/docs/egg.PDF
cheers
mika

The test is for egg crates not eggs cartons
OK
1) you can clearly see that they have low NRC 0.40
and because of that you can cover 100% of the walls !
2) I think they are very good axially perfect from 500hz and up,
they don't over absorb high freq like foam or fiberglass!
they absorb just enough to warm up the sound and make musicians happy.
3) big cabinets , drums, peoples, instruments, furniture, couches etc inside the room
absorb about 40% of the rest of the sound below 500hz up to about 125hz..
and from there and below the walls do the rest...
so you end up with a room that sound warmer but not dead.
still with reflections, but less intense.

now... on the rehearsal spaces back in Europe there was also polystyrene on the walls... yes it's not an acoustical material but some how change a little the sound of the room, a little absorption and a little of some kind of membrane effect. I can guarantee too you that rooms sounded better after the polystyrene and even better with the egg cartons on top of it... in front of the garage door there was usually an heavy curtains.

Now the point is the fire hazard , and I agree with that.

So I'm asking to the scientists , what is today alternative for musicians garages? What we can glue to the entire walls to reduce just about 30% of the offending reflections of the usual concrete floor /drywall rehearsal space..?

timogio

[chuck-lin]

I want to say that now I would NEVER think of going back to Egg Cartons. By today's acoustical standards they are pretty much dog-doo. BUT - they did help me in 1956 I'll tell you....

I'll never forget the first tiime I heard their effect on the sound...


Bruce

It sounded like a chicken!!!

Audience: BOOO!!!!! throws eggs...and egg cartons!!!

note to self..your not a comedian!!

[AVare]

So I'm asking to the scientists , what is today alternative for musicians garages? What we can glue to the entire walls to reduce just about 30% of the offending reflections of the usual concrete floor /drywall rehearsal space..?

Why are you focussing on something (egg crates) that has become obsolete?

Cover 30% or 40% of the surfaces with absorbent material. Choose the thickness as per the low frequency absorption roll off you desire.

Andre

[jwl]

I agree with both points of view: egg crates will affect the sound of a room somewhat if you give 100% coverage. And, I agree that such treatment is nowhere near adequate for getting a good-sounding room.

I also like the idea of moveable acoustic panels, such as the QSF. I have some DIY panels that I use this way, and lately I've been using a Portable Vocal Booth and some RealTraps stuff on stands. It makes a huge difference in the recordings.

You can not only treat spots in the room, but you can also treat what the microphone hears. For me, part of microphone placement is finding the right spot for the performer, the microphones, AND the acoustic panels.

[timogiodeson]

So I'm asking to the scientists , what is today alternative for musicians garages? What we can glue to the entire walls to reduce just about 30% of the offending reflections of the usual concrete floor /drywall rehearsal space..?

Why are you focussing on something (egg crates) that has become obsolete?

Cover 30% or 40% of the surfaces with absorbent material. Choose the thickness as per the low frequency absorption roll off you desire.

Andre

Andre, also JWL, I'm not focusing , I'm trying to find the alternative....

simply because it's not enough, what about the 100000 reflections from the remaining 70% of the walls?
No... not for musician rooms... doesn't work...

for mixing where only one person seat at 38% of the room with 30% of the walls around him treated using the mirror ... maybe OK...
but definitely not for small garage rehearsal rooms with real instruments like drums , guitars , horns etc..

100% coverage is much safer!

for sure you can't do that with foam or fiberglass ...to much absorption!

but with polystyrene, egg cartons, and a curtains in front of the door you can .

back in Europe the secret of the egg cartons was... : it works ! but you need to cover the entire walls and ceiling for the real deal!

(JWL , for the recoding MIC or the Instrument maybe a sweet spot ok... but what about for who make the music the MUSICIANS.. ?
a drums, a guitar, etc inside a small room can be very painful for the performer !! also every time is different we don't set up the same way every time , it depend .. we need the full room ...)


so...Again, please, I agree with fire hazard!
And because of that, I'm asking to the scientists , what is today alternative for musicians garages? What we can glue to the ENTIRE WALLS to reduce just about 30% of the offending reflections intensity of the usual concrete floor /drywall rehearsal space..?

[xSpace]

It sounded like a chicken!!!

Audience: BOOO!!!!! throws eggs...and egg cartons!!!

note to self..your not a comedian!!

But at least yer not chicken!!!

Oh boy, you really did LAY an egg that time

[AVare]

Cover 30% or 40% of the surfaces with absorbent material. Choose the thickness as per the low frequency absorption roll off you desire.

Andre

Andre, also JWL, I'm not focusing , I'm trying to find the alternative....

simply because it's not enough, what about the 100000 reflections from the remaining 70% of the walls?
No... not for musician rooms... doesn't work...

for mixing where only one person seat at 38% of the room with 30% of the walls around him treated using the mirror ... maybe OK...
but definitely not for small garage rehearsal rooms with real instruments like drums , guitars , horns etc..

100% coverage is much safer!

for sure you can't do that with foam or fiberglass ...to much absorption!

OC FRK 705 1" thick. Or study the absorption data on similar products and choose according to your taste. If want to keep to about .3 absorption coefficient do not cover the sections of walls near corners

Studio acoustics has gone from an obscure science to an unintuitive engineering discipline. Keep asking!

Andre

[timogiodeson]

OC FRK 705 1" thick. Or study the absorption data on similar products and choose according to your taste.

Yeaa... something like that.. or a combination of 2 materials... that's why I'm asking to the scientist!! I'm broke... I don't want to make mistakes!

If want to keep to about .3 absorption coefficient do not cover the sections of walls near corners

this I don't understanA.....what the absorption coefficients has to do with the corners and a thin material and without airspace ???:roll:

[gullfo]

i think if you do some searching around, you'll find a couple of reasonable solutions, but generally speaking: scattering the absorption around the room will give you a nice balance because the absorption is hit by the reflections and subsequently is significantly reduced.

if you cover with lightweight materials 100% you're still not addressing significant modes which can be a much bigger problem than echoes... you can also use diffusion - polys, TubeTrap­s(tm), QRD(tm), Skyline(tm), etc. and then there is space coupling which can do some interesting things if you have the room for it.

you can also build slat resonators across corners and angled on flat walls to change room angles, and add absorption and diffusion.

[timogiodeson]

i think if you do some searching around, you'll find a couple of reasonable solutions, but generally speaking: scattering the absorption around the room will give you a nice balance because the absorption is hit by the reflections and subsequently is significantly reduced.

if you cover with lightweight materials 100% you're still not addressing significant modes which can be a much bigger problem than echoes... you can also use diffusion - polys, TubeTrap­s(tm), QRD(tm), Skyline(tm), etc. and then there is space coupling which can do some interesting things if you have the room for it.

you can also build slat resonators across corners and angled on flat walls to change room angles, and add absorption and diffusion.

I remember somebody scientist telling that 100% coverage with flat lightweight material NRC .20 , will absorb more bass and also DIFFUSE more sound than 20% coverage of broadband absorption NRC 1.00 !!

the scattering things OK for a big room or on the other side of the room..but I need to be safe... no scattering snare rim shoots or cymbals in my ears please!

P.S. man I'm renting, I'm broke...forget about the real stuff...I need garage solutions!

$100 for the couple of reasonable solutions!!!! check is in the mail...
Please?

[Ro]

timogiodeson, using wool IS a cheap solution and works great!
Compared to egg crates/cartons/chickens it's a Ferrari while the crates is nothing more than a rusty old bike...

[jwl]

I don't think you'd want to provide 100% coverage of fiberglass in a room, of any thickness. Using 1" fiberglass will completely kill the room, but will leave some low end comb filtering issues. The result will be a dead and boomy room. No Good.

Far better is to stack the 1" panels across the corners of the room, making panels at least 4" thick, and using some remaining tiles evenly scattered throughout the room (as gullfo suggests) until you reach your desired RT60. Depending on the size and materials in the room this could be anywhere from 15-50% coverage for most rooms, usually around 25% (though again this is highly variable, there are equations to help figure out the precise amount of absorption a room needs to achieve the desired RT60).

[Bruce Swedien]

So I'm asking to the scientists , what is today alternative for musicians garages? What we can glue to the entire walls to reduce just about 30% of the offending reflections of the usual concrete floor /drywall rehearsal space..?

Why are you focussing on something (egg crates) that has become obsolete?

Cover 30% or 40% of the surfaces with absorbent material. Choose the thickness as per the low frequency absorption roll off you desire.

Andre

Andre and all......

You can't be so dumb as to not understand why we must know about the past....

For instance: You ask....

Why are you focussing on something (egg crates) that has become obsolete?

My answer....

We need to study the history of recorded music before we can develop the future. In other words, I think it’s very important for each of us involved in the production of recorded music, to understand what happened in the past, in the studio, to be able to move forward today.

I don't use egg cartons or crates or whatever..... (Wouldn't think of it!!)BUT.... I remember them well....

Are you so fantastic that you know it all and don't need to know about the past????

Did you come into this world knowing everything???

Bruce Swedien
The Platinum Viking!!!