John, I am just reading your srticles about power and lighting over at SAE.
Do you know if you need any special permits in Australia (I'm in Victoria) to install the 3 phase power. I'm planning on building a studio in my back yard. I have also noticed how you mentioned the dimmers and that they can be noisy. I went to a friends studio the other day and down lights in his live room were buzzing. Can you recommend any particular lighting system and brand with dimmers?
Thanks a lot John!
Cheers
Electricity in studios!!??
-
knightfly
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6976
- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
I'm not sure if John moved this post here because he knows my background, or if you posted it here, but I'll give it a shot -
First, I don't live in Australia so I can't answer about permits and cost - I do know that in the US, if you're not already in an industrial area it costs a few thousand dollars to get the power company to run 3-phase power to your facility, and they also want to know whether your continued power usage will warrant the expense. It takes a special power meter, special transformers, special power distribution box, and a knowledgable person to lay out the wiring (what goes on which phase, load balancing, etc)
You say you're building a studio in your back yard - can you give an idea of the size, scope and budget? (one room, two, twice the size of Abbey Road, etc, $3000 or $300,000)
If it's a normal, individual project studio, I would question the need for 3-phase power at all. In most project size studios, it will just raise costs and complicate things needlessly.
Dimmers that don't cause buzzing at low light levels are very rare. The only way I know of to accomplish that is to use an Autotransformer, or one of the trade names here is Variac.
The vast majority of lighting dimmers I've seen are all SCR-fired, phase-angle devices. This means that when they are set at low levels, they don't turn on during a cycle of AC power until the voltage is at some value other than zero. The lower you set them, the closer to peak voltage the input power is before they turn on. Under those conditions, you're switching an instantaneous high voltage on through the light, and this causes high frequency spiking in the wiring which can be high enough in frequency and level to radiate as RF. Even though the sound that gets into your audio gear appears to be low frequency, it has enough HF component to carry into even shielded wires. There are more expensive versions that attempt to filter this noise, but in my experience they don't help enough.
An autotransformer, by comparison, uses a variable ratio transformer to adjust the AC voltage to the lights - the power output is stll a sine wave at all levels, so no RF interference is generated. These are not as cheap as the $25 SCR dimmers, but are a lot quieter.
This problem is such a pain in the ass that the way I solved it in my studio was to install two separate lighting systems. I have track lighting (incandescent) with theater gels over the track lights that I can change fairly quickly, separate switches for about 1/3 of the lights, with lighter gels on those for different switchable levels of lighting, and for work lights there are separately switched flourescents at strategic locations when I need a lot of light behind a rack, etc. - I just make sure that I NEVER record anything when the flourescents are turned on. Simple, and quiet.
Another option, depending on your budget, would be balanced power transformer(s) for your gear. This can lower equipment noise floor levels by as much as 20 dB under some circumstances. I'm not sure about Australia's code on these, they were just added to the National Electric Code here in the US about 3 years ago.
If you'll explain just how involved you intend your studio to be, I'll try to get more specific - and maybe John can chime in here on the Aussie-specific parts as well... Steve
First, I don't live in Australia so I can't answer about permits and cost - I do know that in the US, if you're not already in an industrial area it costs a few thousand dollars to get the power company to run 3-phase power to your facility, and they also want to know whether your continued power usage will warrant the expense. It takes a special power meter, special transformers, special power distribution box, and a knowledgable person to lay out the wiring (what goes on which phase, load balancing, etc)
You say you're building a studio in your back yard - can you give an idea of the size, scope and budget? (one room, two, twice the size of Abbey Road, etc, $3000 or $300,000)
If it's a normal, individual project studio, I would question the need for 3-phase power at all. In most project size studios, it will just raise costs and complicate things needlessly.
Dimmers that don't cause buzzing at low light levels are very rare. The only way I know of to accomplish that is to use an Autotransformer, or one of the trade names here is Variac.
The vast majority of lighting dimmers I've seen are all SCR-fired, phase-angle devices. This means that when they are set at low levels, they don't turn on during a cycle of AC power until the voltage is at some value other than zero. The lower you set them, the closer to peak voltage the input power is before they turn on. Under those conditions, you're switching an instantaneous high voltage on through the light, and this causes high frequency spiking in the wiring which can be high enough in frequency and level to radiate as RF. Even though the sound that gets into your audio gear appears to be low frequency, it has enough HF component to carry into even shielded wires. There are more expensive versions that attempt to filter this noise, but in my experience they don't help enough.
An autotransformer, by comparison, uses a variable ratio transformer to adjust the AC voltage to the lights - the power output is stll a sine wave at all levels, so no RF interference is generated. These are not as cheap as the $25 SCR dimmers, but are a lot quieter.
This problem is such a pain in the ass that the way I solved it in my studio was to install two separate lighting systems. I have track lighting (incandescent) with theater gels over the track lights that I can change fairly quickly, separate switches for about 1/3 of the lights, with lighter gels on those for different switchable levels of lighting, and for work lights there are separately switched flourescents at strategic locations when I need a lot of light behind a rack, etc. - I just make sure that I NEVER record anything when the flourescents are turned on. Simple, and quiet.
Another option, depending on your budget, would be balanced power transformer(s) for your gear. This can lower equipment noise floor levels by as much as 20 dB under some circumstances. I'm not sure about Australia's code on these, they were just added to the National Electric Code here in the US about 3 years ago.
If you'll explain just how involved you intend your studio to be, I'll try to get more specific - and maybe John can chime in here on the Aussie-specific parts as well... Steve
Soooo, when a Musician dies, do they hear the white noise at the end of the tunnel??!? Hmmmm...
-
Sen
- Posts: 277
- Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:07 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
Steve, thanks very much. The studio I am intending to build won't be "an Abbey Rd" or anything like that, but I want to make it a decent recording facility and maybe try to make some living out of it 
...
I'll most probably have a "live" room and a control room only (possibly another small vocal/amp booth).The whole building will probably be around 13X7.5 metres big, which is around 100 sq metres.
I am not aware of the three phase power costs, but if it is anywhere near as expensive as in US (as you mentioned) I'll have to leave it out.
The things I don't want happening is amps buzzing, clicks in audio because someone switched a light off and things like that. The reason I was interested in three phase power is that I read about it at SAE site where John suggests this system. But, again, it could be not a great necessity.
I have dimmers in my house, the lights are just the normal light globes and it doesn't seem to be that noisy.
I don't know much about the lighting and stuff....Does every single light has it's own little transformer? Can these transformers be moved further away from the actual lights (longer wires?) and put let's say on top of your ceiling insulation, so you can't hear 'em?
As I said, I don't know much about these things, so excuse any stupid questions
, but you should know what I mean....
And yeah, the studio will be more of a project/semi-pro character, but I wanna build it from the start so that there are not many things that will be in my way if I want to expand my set up later on. I know it depends on how much I will want to expand, but it's not gonna be Abbey Rd...thats for sure...we call it Yabbie Rd here....
Thanks heaps Steve...looking fwd to hearing from you
cheers
...I'll most probably have a "live" room and a control room only (possibly another small vocal/amp booth).The whole building will probably be around 13X7.5 metres big, which is around 100 sq metres.
I am not aware of the three phase power costs, but if it is anywhere near as expensive as in US (as you mentioned) I'll have to leave it out.
The things I don't want happening is amps buzzing, clicks in audio because someone switched a light off and things like that. The reason I was interested in three phase power is that I read about it at SAE site where John suggests this system. But, again, it could be not a great necessity.
I have dimmers in my house, the lights are just the normal light globes and it doesn't seem to be that noisy.
I don't know much about the lighting and stuff....Does every single light has it's own little transformer? Can these transformers be moved further away from the actual lights (longer wires?) and put let's say on top of your ceiling insulation, so you can't hear 'em?
As I said, I don't know much about these things, so excuse any stupid questions
, but you should know what I mean....And yeah, the studio will be more of a project/semi-pro character, but I wanna build it from the start so that there are not many things that will be in my way if I want to expand my set up later on. I know it depends on how much I will want to expand, but it's not gonna be Abbey Rd...thats for sure...we call it Yabbie Rd here....
Thanks heaps Steve...looking fwd to hearing from you
cheers
Kind regards
Sen
Sen
-
knightfly
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6976
- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
Sen, that helped get a better idea of scale - just a few more preliminaries and we can get started -
Firstly, John, if you're brousing - correct me if my recollection of Aussie domestic power is all wet - 240 volt, single phase, 50 hZ - the only two connections are earth ground, and 240 VAC?
Sen, I need to get a rough idea of what you are budgeting JUST for electrical for your studio - that will affect which options I bother to recomend, although I might mention things that were more costly just for information's sake.
Also, are you planning a kitchen and/or bath in the studio? Separate power meter, or extended from the house?
Most dimmers don't make much audible noise, unless you're really close - the way you'l find it, is to hook your vintage stratocaster up to an amp (NOT set to position 2 or 4 on the pickups), turn it up, and walk near either the wires to the light or the light itself, or the wall where the dimmer is, and HMMMMMMMM....
So, come on back with a few more details and lets get started... Steve
Oh, I almost forgot - are you in a part of Australia that gets those horrendous lightning storms? (Please say no...)
Firstly, John, if you're brousing - correct me if my recollection of Aussie domestic power is all wet - 240 volt, single phase, 50 hZ - the only two connections are earth ground, and 240 VAC?
Sen, I need to get a rough idea of what you are budgeting JUST for electrical for your studio - that will affect which options I bother to recomend, although I might mention things that were more costly just for information's sake.
Also, are you planning a kitchen and/or bath in the studio? Separate power meter, or extended from the house?
Most dimmers don't make much audible noise, unless you're really close - the way you'l find it, is to hook your vintage stratocaster up to an amp (NOT set to position 2 or 4 on the pickups), turn it up, and walk near either the wires to the light or the light itself, or the wall where the dimmer is, and HMMMMMMMM....
So, come on back with a few more details and lets get started... Steve
Oh, I almost forgot - are you in a part of Australia that gets those horrendous lightning storms? (Please say no...)
Soooo, when a Musician dies, do they hear the white noise at the end of the tunnel??!? Hmmmm...
-
Guest
Steve, I'm so sory that I didn't get back here earlier. Thanks for your last response. Not sure if you'll be checking back here again, but I'll try anyway .
As far as my budget is concerned (especially for the electrical works) there's no figure set, but I was thinking (hoping) that it wouldn't go over $15000. I have no clue about what the prices on electricals are, but will certainly have to start finding out. I am still at early planning stages, but pretty much know what I want, and don't exactly know how to do it all....that's why I'm here, isn't it.
Yes I will have a little kitchen and a little bathroom (toilet+shower). Probably will be getting the separate power meter, not extending from the house.
I would like to get things done decently, even if it means exceeding the budget by some amount. I will try to purchase as many used materials as I can (like bricks, doors, floor boards etc.) so I can save more money for the things that can't be really purchased used (like elect. installations and similar).
I am of course planning on installing the air conditioning system with one of those "on roof" cooling units. (old man works at an air-con co. so it should be a bit cheaper).
Hope this is some more useful things for you, and will appreciate any further suggestions and help...
Thanks
cheers
.As far as my budget is concerned (especially for the electrical works) there's no figure set, but I was thinking (hoping) that it wouldn't go over $15000. I have no clue about what the prices on electricals are, but will certainly have to start finding out. I am still at early planning stages, but pretty much know what I want, and don't exactly know how to do it all....that's why I'm here, isn't it
.Yes I will have a little kitchen and a little bathroom (toilet+shower). Probably will be getting the separate power meter, not extending from the house.
I would like to get things done decently, even if it means exceeding the budget by some amount. I will try to purchase as many used materials as I can (like bricks, doors, floor boards etc.) so I can save more money for the things that can't be really purchased used (like elect. installations and similar).
I am of course planning on installing the air conditioning system with one of those "on roof" cooling units. (old man works at an air-con co. so it should be a bit cheaper).
Hope this is some more useful things for you, and will appreciate any further suggestions and help...
Thanks
cheers
-
knightfly
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6976
- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
Hi again, Sen - Firstly, I'd BETTER check back here, or else John will be asking someone ELSE to moderate...
If you check the thread on Approximate Cost in this forum, you'll see that John estimated around $1000 per sq meter for construction by others, and about 1/3 that for DIY construction in Australia - if that # holds true for larger projects (I would think this would be slightly less as size goes up) that would put DIY construction at around $300 per sq meter, or around $30,000 for your project. Finding used materials where it's not going to compromise acoustic integrity should help that some, but it's still going to be a struggle.
As to the "on roof" AC unit - it's good to have contacts, 'specially family - however, I'd recommend AGAINST putting the AC unit on the roof. If the unit you get can be located elsewhere, that would be better. The roof is the absolute LAST place you want a vibrating piece of machinery when you're trying to get a quiet recording space. Even specifically designed anti-vibration mounts for the actual unit in use, have caused big problems with structure-born noise.
The best place for an AC unit is at the neighbors' house :=) Barring that, a small, isolated slab on rubber mounts, with flex-duct to the main building - barring that, the farthest corner of the building with rubber mounts, flex duct attached, and heavy sound walls around it.
Otherwise, be ready to kill the AC every time you punch Record.
Refrigerators are notorious for spiking the AC line when turning on/off, especially OFF. A separate branch circuit, with heavy filter, for the frig to plug into will dampen the spikes BEFORE they get into the rest of the power grid. Otherwise, the frig should also be turned off (or unplugged)when recording.
Pro studios normally run a site study using recording sound level meters over a course of a few weeks so that they know what degree of sound proofing will be necessary - the poor man's version of this is to conciously listen to any and all sounds that are prevalent while you are there, making notes as to which ones sound the most intrusive - a great help in quantifying these is the Radio Shack Analog Sound Level Meter, cost here is around $40 so in Oz it should run around $70-75? It doesn't go as low in level as the $1000 and up ones, but if a sound is loud enough to bother a decently built studio it will show up on one of the two lower scales.
Making a basic study such as this will tell you how serious you need to get on perimeter wall construction, and will help keep you from blowing too much of your budget there (unless of course, you have really picky neighbors with good hearing...)
Another cost-saving would be to use two pre-hung, solid-core doors in tandem rather than the sliders John prefers - not as open feeling, but about 1/4 the cost.
If you do a lot of electronic recording, as opposed to acoustic instruments needing a good sounding room, you could delay the cost associated with the tracking room for a while, building the control room first. This is what I'm considering for my next studio, which will also be a free-standing entity. This would let you get the heart of things going first, adding the tracking and iso rooms when budget allows.
John can fill you in on that wonderful Oz commodity, lightning - Maybe he knows of someone in your area that's knowledgable about possible ways of protecting gear, or if it's bad enough, just un-plugging everything til it passes - I've heard some horror stories on this. Mother nature can be a real bitch, in more ways than one.
Didn't mean to rain on your parade, but I don't want to help you jump into a lake without knowing the depth either. I hope this helps clarify some things for you... Steve
If you check the thread on Approximate Cost in this forum, you'll see that John estimated around $1000 per sq meter for construction by others, and about 1/3 that for DIY construction in Australia - if that # holds true for larger projects (I would think this would be slightly less as size goes up) that would put DIY construction at around $300 per sq meter, or around $30,000 for your project. Finding used materials where it's not going to compromise acoustic integrity should help that some, but it's still going to be a struggle.
As to the "on roof" AC unit - it's good to have contacts, 'specially family - however, I'd recommend AGAINST putting the AC unit on the roof. If the unit you get can be located elsewhere, that would be better. The roof is the absolute LAST place you want a vibrating piece of machinery when you're trying to get a quiet recording space. Even specifically designed anti-vibration mounts for the actual unit in use, have caused big problems with structure-born noise.
The best place for an AC unit is at the neighbors' house :=) Barring that, a small, isolated slab on rubber mounts, with flex-duct to the main building - barring that, the farthest corner of the building with rubber mounts, flex duct attached, and heavy sound walls around it.
Otherwise, be ready to kill the AC every time you punch Record.
Refrigerators are notorious for spiking the AC line when turning on/off, especially OFF. A separate branch circuit, with heavy filter, for the frig to plug into will dampen the spikes BEFORE they get into the rest of the power grid. Otherwise, the frig should also be turned off (or unplugged)when recording.
Pro studios normally run a site study using recording sound level meters over a course of a few weeks so that they know what degree of sound proofing will be necessary - the poor man's version of this is to conciously listen to any and all sounds that are prevalent while you are there, making notes as to which ones sound the most intrusive - a great help in quantifying these is the Radio Shack Analog Sound Level Meter, cost here is around $40 so in Oz it should run around $70-75? It doesn't go as low in level as the $1000 and up ones, but if a sound is loud enough to bother a decently built studio it will show up on one of the two lower scales.
Making a basic study such as this will tell you how serious you need to get on perimeter wall construction, and will help keep you from blowing too much of your budget there (unless of course, you have really picky neighbors with good hearing...)
Another cost-saving would be to use two pre-hung, solid-core doors in tandem rather than the sliders John prefers - not as open feeling, but about 1/4 the cost.
If you do a lot of electronic recording, as opposed to acoustic instruments needing a good sounding room, you could delay the cost associated with the tracking room for a while, building the control room first. This is what I'm considering for my next studio, which will also be a free-standing entity. This would let you get the heart of things going first, adding the tracking and iso rooms when budget allows.
John can fill you in on that wonderful Oz commodity, lightning - Maybe he knows of someone in your area that's knowledgable about possible ways of protecting gear, or if it's bad enough, just un-plugging everything til it passes - I've heard some horror stories on this. Mother nature can be a real bitch, in more ways than one.
Didn't mean to rain on your parade, but I don't want to help you jump into a lake without knowing the depth either. I hope this helps clarify some things for you... Steve
Soooo, when a Musician dies, do they hear the white noise at the end of the tunnel??!? Hmmmm...
-
Sen
- Posts: 277
- Joined: Wed Mar 26, 2003 11:07 pm
- Location: Melbourne, Australia
thanks Steve,
In the area I live in, there's not a great deal of the lightning storms and things like that, so I should be ok as far as the safety of the gear in operation is concerned.
The air-con - of course, how can I even imagine putting it on the roof....I will definately plan to isolate that from the building as much as possible.
My building permit application (which shouldn't be a big problem) is being processed and some basic drawings have hit the paper, so the next step would be the architectural plans and what have you....
I am considering so many things and options, but settling slowly into a couple of things to choose from
I'll do some "homework" and see how thgings go....I'll let you know how things progress!!
thanks
In the area I live in, there's not a great deal of the lightning storms and things like that, so I should be ok as far as the safety of the gear in operation is concerned.
The air-con - of course, how can I even imagine putting it on the roof....I will definately plan to isolate that from the building as much as possible.
My building permit application (which shouldn't be a big problem) is being processed and some basic drawings have hit the paper, so the next step would be the architectural plans and what have you....
I am considering so many things and options, but settling slowly into a couple of things to choose from
I'll do some "homework" and see how thgings go....I'll let you know how things progress!!
thanks
Kind regards
Sen
Sen
-
knightfly
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6976
- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
Cool - it's good to know that not ALL of Oz is plagued by the horror of being fried by your favorite guitar - that way, you can concentrate on not being bitten by red widows, or one of 12,000 varieties of snakes, etc... If all the stuff you read about Oz is even 10% true, it's no wonder you guys have a rep for being tough...
Just kidding, I know every place has its good and bad - best of luck dealing with the bureaucrats, and let us know if we can help with any other decisions... Steve
Just kidding, I know every place has its good and bad - best of luck dealing with the bureaucrats, and let us know if we can help with any other decisions... Steve
Soooo, when a Musician dies, do they hear the white noise at the end of the tunnel??!? Hmmmm...
-
Mr. Beasty
- Posts: 12
- Joined: Tue Apr 08, 2003 8:15 am
- Location: SC, USA
- Contact:
Solution
See I don't have that problem ... my studio is candled powered 
!!
!!G.A.S.? ... If symptom persits, consult a physician!
"We'd be as rich as the Stones if we sold as many records as them" --Vim Fuego (Bad News)
"We'd be as rich as the Stones if we sold as many records as them" --Vim Fuego (Bad News)