HVAC Soffit construction?

How thick should my walls be, should I float my floors (and if so, how), why is two leaf mass-air-mass design important, etc.

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knightfly
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Post by knightfly »

"I am mostly concerned with sound escaping through the ductwork. It is heating and air return. " - "I would like to be able to record drums or high volume guitar at midnight and have my wife and dog be able to sleep upstairs." - Yeah, people in Hell want ice water too... :cry:

Seriously, I'm not making fun of you, it's just that that much isolation requires a "total package" approach - if your ductwork is plain old house construction, you may need to replace it with ducting that is designed specifically for sound attenuation. High isolation requires multiple bends and absorption INSIDE the ducts, as well as a much larger cross section. This is because the noise that is generated by moving air is proportional to the 4th or 5th POWER of the air velocity. So a slight reduction in air velocity (larger diameter duct) results in a large decrease in sound generated. Also, sound WILL "swim upstream" almost as easily as "downstream" - think about it - typical air velocities for ductwork are around 300 feet per MINUTE - sound travels in air at approximately 1130 feet per SECOND. So upstream sound may only travel at 1125 feet per second, instead of 1130...

One possible "fix" for your ducts - if your ducts run parallel to the ceiling joists, it may be possible to get your "mass-air-mass" construction ALL between the duct and the studio - I would need to see a drawing showing the duct cross-section as related to the ceiling framing to know if this is possible.

Your floating floor will have only a couple inches of air gap, so won't attenuate possible flanking noise as well as one with 4-5 inches of gap. The insulation in the floor isn't there for heat, it's there to break up sound waves and lessen the coupling between the floated floor and the concrete. Once sound gets into the concrete, you're screwed - it will conduct all over the foundation and framing, and re-radiate multiple places in the house. This is why successful floated floors are at least heavy wood (like 2" or more just for sheathing) or concrete.

Where you're floating two separate floors, first I would make them thicker and heavier and with a larger air gap if possible - second, I would make each floor different in mass/materials than the other. This is because any sound that flanks through one floor into the concrete will be less likely to share sympathetic resonance with the other floor if they have a different resonant frequency.

Remember, the ultimate goal of sound isolation is to get all surfaces resonant at sub-audible frequencies - this can only be done with mass and air space. The closer you get to this goal, the less coupling between rooms.

If walls are floated on a floated floor, there is no need to float the wall on the floor - the function of "floating" is to isolate inner leaves from structure in order to minimise flanking noise. That would be accomplished by the floor suspension, as long as the walls aren't allowed to have hard physical contact with structure. There are sway braces available that handle this last part. Also, light gauge steel studs or Resilient Channel will further isolate the inner wallboard leaf from structure.

Doors and windows are another source of disappointment in sound proofing - doors need to be hermetically sealed when closed, and double doors with a sound lock (think foyer) are necessary for anything more than STC 45-50. Overly makes one door that's rated at 55 dB if I remember correctly - it only sells as a complete frame and door and seal package, and it costs just over $5,000. To get close to that, you need tandem doors, each with a good drop threshold and well-made seals.

"Last question...really....Back to the soffits. Can/should I substitute a "hat channel" for the RC that is supporting the cleat/vertical face of the soffit?
Also, I am using metal stud walls, so can I skip the RC onthe wall/soffit intersection and screw my soffit cleat to the metal stud?" -

Hey, that last question was two questions - :wink:

First, you could do that - note, however, that I drew the RC's pretty close together - if it works out that the normal RC position is relatively close to the soffit, I would just add an extra RC right where the cleat needs to be. The extra weight of the soffit won't be any more than if you continued horizontally with 2 feet of double drywall. In addition, the hat channel isn't as resilient as the single legged RC (be careful here though - at least one company (Dietrich) has two different grades of RC, only one of which is rated for ceiling use)

Screwing the cleat direct to steel stud - Yes, you can do that - I'm hoping you're using the light 25 gauge studs, otherwise RC will be needed. Just remember to make sure you caulk everything thoroughly with REAL acoustic rated caulk - even over the net, the large tubes of that aren't much more expensive per unit than the small, WRONG ones at Home Depot.

As I said previously, if you really want to isolate ceiling from wall, you could insert a strip of RC where the outer corner cleat is drawn, then caulk thoroughly. This would break the hard path between the vertical soffit wall and the horizontal soffit bottom.

Be sure and download the USG handbook while you're at it, lots of valuable info in that - see the "stickies" section.

Don't get "gunshy" about asking questions, I've been doing this long enough to know you're nowhere NEAR through asking questions :wink: ... Steve
Eggman
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:32 pm
Location: Seattle WA

Post by Eggman »

Steve,

I just completed rereading every single post on the construction forum. I have access to the internet in the control rrom at work. We are doing multiple runs of a very slow low tech show. My brain hurts. I answered some of my own questions but a few more popped up.

I have the space to build a typical foyer type sound lock. Roughly a 6'x6' room with a door to the control room and a door to the live room.


1. Should I isolate the floor of the foyer from the live room and control room (each will have its own floor)?
2. Should I build my double walls between the foyer and LR CR and then build another double wall at the entrance to the foyer? This would seem violate the mass-space-mass rule by having another mass or m-s-m so close, in effect setting up a triple or quadruple leaf situation?

I am trying to build with new condition salvage materials from several local re-use sources. i have found screaming deals on T&G ply and T&G OSB at $4/sheet and new 2" solid doors surplused from a hospital for $10 ea. i also located about 20 4'x8'sheets of "2 compressed fiberglass for a few bucks each. I don't know enough about this product to know if it is usable. It is foil backed and has no brand name or info anywhere on it.
Can I use this beneath my floor instead of rockwool. I'm sure I CAN use it, but is it better or worse than rockwool?

Okay, enough questions. As usual..thanks. Take your time with any answers. I'll keep reading and researching.

BTW, like you said, those people in hell want icewater, but they probably would make do with a cup of hot chocolate as well. I'm going for an ice water studio, but I'll dig the heck outta a hot chocolate one.

Doug
knightfly
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Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
Location: West Coast, USA

Post by knightfly »

(1) Yes, definitely. You do NOT want the floors to flank noise between rooms.

(2) The sound lock should be NON-parallel walled if possible, the doors should NOT be parallel to each other (preferably at right angles to each other), and the lock should be heavily absorbed. One way to do it without getting into a multi-leaf situation is to put triple layers of wallboard on all walls that border the lock, then heavy absorption in frames and then either perforated metal and/or cloth over, so that the entire interior of the lock is absorbed but that you still have two leaves between any two areas when the lock is closed.

One thing that doesn't seem to be clear yet, probably because I've not stressed it since it doesn't apply in the majority of cases -

If you look at the attached graphic, you'll note that TWO identical walls (STC40 example) are NOT WORSE than one, just not as efficient use of materials as the STC63 example, which uses the exact same amount of materials and almost the exact same amount of wall thickness (+ two layers of wallboard) - So multi-leaf walls are not total disaster, just not as efficient (in most cases) as using the same materials in different designs where there are only two leaves.

I'm still working on a graphic explanation of this, but basically in my mind building double leaf walls on each side of a sound lock actually makes MORE sense. I'm not quite ready to clarify that, but will as soon as I get time to finish the graphic examples and text layout. Stay tuned... Steve
Eggman
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:32 pm
Location: Seattle WA

Post by Eggman »

Steve,
Thanks for the latest input. I have been hunting/gathering materials and have completed the tear-out of the sixties era basement treatment. I hope to begin building soon.

Questions:
1. I was looking at the pix of the Blue Bear Sound project and noticed the HVAC ductwork is very much like that in my basement. They seemed to have wraped it with something before framing. Could you take a look and tell me what it is? Sheet block? I will spring for the extra $$ if it will help any. Do you recomend a layer?

2. As I was searching for a local source of acoustic sealant I ended up on the phone with an acoustic consultant and he said that they use 20 year non-hardening silicone. You've cautioned against Home Depot/Lowes.etc cheap caulking products but (one more time?) can I use this? As an aside, I am 48, so if I get 20 good years out of the silicone (and consequently the studio) I'll be happy. 15 yrs in a road band insured my ears will give out by the time I'm 68, but that's another issue.

Thanks,
Doug
knightfly
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Post by knightfly »

I'm not able to tell from the pix what Bruce used to wrap his ducts - maybe he'll check in soon and you can ask him - or you could PM him, and that might speed things up. This is one case where the expensive sheet blok would be warranted - if fastened to the metal ductwork with contact cement it would damp the vibrations of the metal and cut the noise level both directions, probably by quite a bit.

The phrase "20 year non-hardening silicone) could also be used to describe actual acoustic rated caulk, so it's kind of ambiguous as to whether your acoustic guy meant the HD kind of stuff or actual acoustic caulk. The real acoustic stuff is "floppier" than the regular stuff, in addition to NOT ever hardening. Even buying it on the net isn't any more expensive than getting the NON acoustic stuff at HD - the tubes are more expensive, but they're quart size instead of 10 ounces. Here's one link if you can't find it locally - local sources would be possibly commercial drywall contractors -

http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/prod ... /caulk.asp

You may be able to contact Titebond directly and see if they have local distributors you can deal with - reports of local purchase typically run around $4 to $4.50 per 29 oz tube - even though HD doesnt' carry the caulk, you CAN get the large caulk GUN at HD, they run about $14.

Personally, I'm 58 and I STILL wouldn't use the wrong stuff. All it takes to ruin a sound wall is a 1/64" crack a foot long, caused by a marginal caulk job shrinking and pulling away from a surface. Not worth the chance unless you want to build stuff for the rest of your life instead of USING it... Steve
Eggman
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Jan 24, 2004 9:32 pm
Location: Seattle WA

Post by Eggman »

Hi again...I don't know if it is proper to just keep appending my origional post with new questions or if I should start an entirely new post for each subject.

I am getting ready to lay my sleepers (2 x 4 laid on their flat side), fill with rock wool, and cover with T & G plywood to build my floor. I am having a real delima over putting down a vapor barrier or not. I read the basement science info and they basically said don't build anything in any basement. Well, my basement is the only space available, so i'm going to put my studio there. The floor and walls are bone dry, even after weeks of rain. I can't bring myself to just lay the insullation on the bare concrete. A number of RSD forum's readers have sucessfully built basement studios. My question is:

Should I lay down a vapor barrier or not? And reasons.

Thanks in advance for your wise help.

Doug
knightfly
Senior Member
Posts: 6976
Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
Location: West Coast, USA

Post by knightfly »

Continuing this thread is fine - few threads stay focussed all the way through anyway.

Generally, you want things that MAY get wet to be ALSO able to DRY. Rockwool shouldn't need a vapor barrier, but your floor sheathing probably should have one. Any wood in contact with concrete should be pressure treated, so if you're laying your 2x4's flat on the concrete they should be pressure treated. If they will be floated on neoprene or EPDM, it's not as vital. Either way, you can put the rockwool between them touching the concrete, then lay Tyvek house wrap over the whole thing and put down your floor sheathing. The tyvek is able to breathe somewhat, but will still protect the underside of your wood floor material from excess moisture.

From your description, it sounds like the outside of your basement was done in a good enough way to keep excess moisture from being a problem. Lucky you... Steve
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