John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

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Hello Eric, thanks for posting that. I did go back and find the info I was looking for. I also started fooling around with some metal framing/hat channel ideas for suspending this ceiling. But then I thought I would look at some details on the net, and found this. After reading a bit, some things occured to me. This is a very HEAVY ceiling assembly. And you said the installers are coming soon. Have you applied for permits or checked the codes for the ceiling portion of this project? The reason I asked, is there are some pretty intense specs here, and it might behoove you to check into this before arbitrarily designing the suspension system and connections. It might be wise, as if anyone were to get hurt during installation, or anything else, and you don't have a permit for this, you might be opening a real big can of worms. Just a little advice, as you are asking here for ideas to finish this design before the installers come. I would seriously consider a postponement of this portion untill you get some professional engineering advice or consultation. But in case you have already submitted plans for a permit, please ignor this, however, I don't know how you could have if you don't even have your suspension design finalized yet. I would bet money that there are some kind of codes governing this in case of fire, as the wires are the only thing holding this thing up BTW, how were you fastening these to the gyp bd? And at the ceiling? I didn't see any sort of framing system or channels in your sketch? Might wanna read this section of USG metal framing/suspension specs. Maybe it will illuminate what I am saying, or at least give you some idea of the serious nature of this project.

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:g7 ... p+bd&hl=en

Hello, fitZ,

Thanks for the information link. Some very valuable information, there.

You make some very good points. First let me clarify my present dilemma:

The installers are coming to tear out the old roof (slats and old shingles) and install new decking and shingles. That's all they're going to do for now. No fancy additions or such at this time, and everything in that plan so far meets code exactly. What I'm trying to do is look ahead and make sure I don't miss something that needs to be done during roofing that I'll wish I had taken care of when I start soundproofing.

The extra stuff, including the sound barriers and added weight are things that are NOT etched in stone. And that, indeed is why I'm posting this information - to run these interior ideas by you guys and see what brainstorms result.

The actual hold-up I'm experiencing is on the loan, which has to do with zoning. The street on which this building sits is zoned C4, which is commercial business zoning. The nature of the specific zoning law in this case allows both residential and businesses along this street. So in fact, my restrictions are less than if it were zoned strictly residential or strictly commercial (but of course, this confuses the banks who like to do everything by step-bystep thoughtless process).

The other side of this story is that the area is known as Fountain Square. Fountain Square bloomed in the 1850's and went strong until the 1960's when a new expressway (I-70) was built, slicing Fountain Square out of the downtown area. Things went downhill fast and by the mid 70's, it was a poverty stricken drug neighborhood.

In the early '80's some people got together and created an organization which zeroed in on these problems and started running the drug lords out of town. Many of these houses and apartments, known by the city to be historic, have been purchased by government grant money through this organization and auctioned off to reliable people (of presentable credit histories, etc.). Lockerbie Square, which is right next door to Fountain Square, is now one of the most expensive, ritziest places to live in Indianapolis. You cannot buy a house there for less than half a $ million. It was in worse shape than Fountain Square (although Fountain Square is much larger).

There have since been born several other major organizations in the area. I am a board member of two of these organizations, and we ALL work closely with each other on community development. Our district contains historic buildings, but we have not officially entered the area into government books as "historic". And we wish it to remain this way for as long as possible, because historic construction restrictions will only serve to slow the area's growth.

Until that time comes, we are all buying buildings as fast as we can afford, and bringing in others who can afford to do the same. [Don't get me wrong - I am not a wealthy guy - just doing my part and chasing my dream in the meantime.] I happened across this old church which is one of many large old buildings, suffering some level of disrepair. Perfect for me, because proper soundproofing would have required a lot of tear out on any building - so one that needed a total re-do was a perfect find.

As for meeting code, the city, so far, has turned their heads while the area is coming up to par. This is somewhat unfortunate, because there ARE a few people who are doing some things they really shouldn't be. But as I happen to know many of the boardmembers who are in position to approve/disapprove these matters, I know they are favorable to the introduction of a studio Fountain Square - they are literally cheering me on. As far as being safe, I am held to my own understanding and other construction engineers (whom I do work with). In fact, my ex-wife is a construction engineer.

But one thing to note, and I say this for everybody: I have learned that you can understand more about structures than the people who write the codes. This does not prevent them from shutting you down when you go above and beyond the requirements they laid down, if they do not understand what you've done. But it helps to have a lot of papers, signed by a lot of other people who also know more than the inspectors. And in this case, it also helps to have those connections - pretty darned cool, actually.

In the end, as long as this stuff meets basic code - and believe me, I do have architects and inspectors involved - I feel rather confident that if I try to install something I shouldn't, one of these guys/gals will let me know. After that, by the time this area does become historically registered, all the work will be grandfathered in, and only the changes thereafter will be affected by the more strict regulations.

As for now, I'm looking for ideas, no matter how hairbrained they might sound. The practical application approach for installation can be sought at a later date. I'm looking for imagination.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

To answer at least one of your other questions:
The dropped ceiling I had in mind would not have been ANY different the the average drop ceiling assembly, except that springs are added to the wiring (which are drilled into the framing members above) and the ceiling being drywall pieces instead of acoustical ceiling tile.

Eric

Hello again Eric. Very interesting. Well it sounds like you have a handle on this project, but let me add one thing. I used to install store fixtures, and our main client was Macys. I've seen MANY unusual solutions in their stores, for suspension of ceilings. But almost all of them included the use of UNISTRUT as the MAIN suspended support mechanism, with HATCHANNEL wired to the Unistrut, and the sheetrock screwed to the Hatchannnel. The Unistrut was usually suspended by a type of wire that is identified and spec'd for these loads, and in turn, hung from what ever type of bracket that was required for the condition above. Usually, an "L" bracket that was fastened to a concrete floor above, which they "fired" a concrete anchor through a hole in the L bracket into the concrete. In your case, I would the suggest the use of a "kinetic" isolation connector(not a spring) for decoupling the unistrut from the framing above. Well, thats my .02. Here are some links. Good luck and keep posting your progress.
Its always interesting to see these sort of unusual projects.

http://www.unistrut.com/product/mframe.html
http://www.silentsource.com/specprod-hangers.html
http://www.silentsource.com/rsic.html

fitZ

Now those are some great ideas! I like the rubber better than the springs. Quite a bit more of an expense, though - $3.20 each as opposed to $0.65 ea. However, seems I can get these in a sturdy version. [I wonder about their pricing? Seems they have it backward, because the largest diameter is rated for the lowest weight. Is it me, or is this a mistake? - No matter, I will keep this idea in the back of my mind.]

Thanks.

Eric

Hello Eric, your cost on these would be determined by the weight spacing ratio using Unistrut, but I don't know how you would calculate that. Also, the connectors at the framing above should be spec'd by weight/pull out. We had to provide these sort of engineered specifications when we suspended heavy such as valances, signage, and other types of store fixtures from structural
ceilings above suspended ceilings.

fitZ

Right. When I found the custom spring manufacturer, I had estimated the weight of the dropped ceiling structure. This was all at the very beginning - early 2002, soon after I bought the building, but before the foundational reinforcement work began (which still continues). Since then, I have changed my mind on quite a few things, such as how handy it would be for future maintenance to use batts rather than blow-in in the ceiling! You never know when you have to get back up in there for something. And the people on this forum are talking me into using other than the original insulation (I was leaning toward mineral wool - Eric Giles and Steve seem to have some better ideas.) In any case, I will hold off from doing the actual calculations until right before actually making the material orders.

Eric

Hey Eric, this is just a drawing exercise for me. Pay no heed.
fitZ

FitZ,

Interesting drawing. I hadn't really concerned myself as to how the walls and ceiling would fit (seal) together. That's a nice idea, there. I presume you're using rubber in the drywall corner.

Eric, that was just a quick drawing excercise. The detail is NOT exactly what I would do, and in fact, there are quite a few things not shown either. Like a floating sway bracket at the top of the wall, and the "L" brackets bolted to the rafters for the wires, and a few others. But it will do for a quicky. Actually, that is not a rubber seal, it is caulking, and again, I didn't show or call out fiberglass tape and joint compound over it. Although I've always wondered how caulking sticks to an open edge of gyp bd. Doesn't seem like it would, at least not very well.
I have seen a detail in the USG spec's of a rubber or vinyl seal that sticks on but I don't think I would like the looks of that. Unless it was covered by acoustic treatments or something of that nature. But for a painted finish, I prefer the tape and texture over caulking.
fitZ

I have to admit that most of my experience with odd construction is very limited, at best. My degree is in electrical engineering, by trade, I'm really an embedded software engineer, and I minored in mechanical engineering - specifically the physics of sound in average building materials. A lot of the materials these guys talk about on this forum have me baffled. I'd like to find a manual on some of this stuff that lays out some of the densities, absorption coefficients, and so on.

The truth is, I think I have a pretty good handle on what I want, in a theoretical perspective. But piecing together a practical structure is not something I'm as good at.

This is a great website. Sometimes, I'm afraid I'm stepping on someone's toes if I start debating on a subject. Just so you know (i.e. in case I start arguing with you on something ) I'm really not so full of myself. I do my learning through debating!

Let me tell you about what I've a mind to do, as I see you are quite gifted in the construction area. Just something I'm considering.... Instead of hanging a heavy ceiling and adding dense walls and supporting floor, I've considered building an entire "cage" framework, suspended within the main tracking room on steel I-beams and columns.

Here's the reasoning:
1) The walls are very tall - the gables peaking at 2 1/2 stories. This is an old building and the foundations are not really very wide or deep in these older buildings. Adding so much weight to a building this size is like creating a miniature black hole in Indianapolis (people will feel gravitated toward me)!
2) Add the weight of the roof to the weight of the walls they sit upon, and we have even more possible trouble.
3) With 3 large beams suspended across from one end to the other (one that goes right over the triangles, but under the roof, and two just along the bottom edges, sitting on columns that are buried 10-15 ft underground, this makes a very sturdy support. Of course, holes will have to be cut in the floor on the main tracking room at all 4 corners, as in the middle of the gable walls, to support these beams.
4) Some extra large (or a large number) of isolators could be used to hang an inside steel framework, on which the floor, walls, and ceilingwould be built and well insulated all the way around - that is, as long as the isolators on which the room rests are truly doing their jobs.

The cool thing about this is the ease at which the rest of construction would be, once the skeleton is complete. The downside is trusting those hangers with all the weight and stress, to be able to also serve as true isolators.

??

Eric, near as I can tell by your drawing, those massive triangles are a physical part of your exterior leaf and so shouldn't be impinging on your inner space (unless I'm not seeing this right) - your drawing looks to me like you're planning an outer mass leaf outside the springs/kinetics units, then an inner one suspended on the isolators - however, it looks to me like those massive triangles will be partly inside your INNER leaf, and as such will be one hell of a flanking path - yes, no, WTF??!? Steve

Hello gents....Steve, I was thinking the same thing. It actually occured to me that there is no way to include the truss's in room. To TRULY isolate a room within a room configuration, the new ceiling would have to be BELOW the joist chord of the truss. No? Well, thats my .02 anyway. Looks like it may be one of those.."can't have your cake and eat it too" scenarios. I know this though, a STEEL STRUCTURAL FRAME, 32'x60'x 2 stories tall, is some BIG $$$$$$$$$

Eric, I thought you had mentioned there are columns supporting these trusses. IF you are concerned about transferring the load from the framing above the suspended ceiling, to the walls, how bout the trusses themselves? If it were me, I'd investigate the footing for these columns, and maybe have an structural engineer look at these loads, via small steel "I" beams bolted between each truss. Then suspend
a new ceiling BELOW the bottom chord FROM THE "I" beams. That would transfer the load to the trusses/columns/footing. Even if you had to dig out for another steel column/increased size footing, it sure would be cheaper than a complete steel frame. Holy moly, I can't even begin to comprehend how you would build that within the existing structure.
fitZ

however, it looks to me like those massive triangles will be partly inside your INNER leaf, and as such will be one hell of a flanking path - yes, no, WTF??!?

Yes, Steve, you hit it on the 3rd note, there! That was, in fact, my biggest complaint. I really don't want to have to give up that extra space. Yes, fitZ, I DO want my cake and eat it, too! After all, what good is a !@%& cake if you can't eat it?!

(Sigh)

It's crap, isn't it?

C'mon, man, I'm not giving up. I KNOW there's a way. (Help us out here, God!)

As far as the steel cage structure, The I-Beam columns would rise out of the floor along each corner, just inches inside the original walls. One column would support a beam that would go along the 50' length to the next column on the other end. The other side of the room would hold the other pair. The third pair would be down the middle, through the tops of the triangles. Whether this structure touches any of the building or not makes no diference, you see, because these bad boys would only serve to hold the massive weight of the interior room. The isolators would then hang from these, on which a lighter frame would be built with many "ribs" supporting a steel grate floor. The floor would support everything built on top of it. Yes, possibly more expense than its worth, but worth the 20 minute fantasy freak show (it's fun to pretend). I'd have to see what the real deal will cost, for sure. A good group of steel workers could probably whip that out in a day. But I'd have to look into the cost before seriously considering it.

But back to the real issue, Steve. I share this concern of yours. A shunt from outside to inside. Here's the real problem: If I try to remove those triangles, the ENTIRE building WILL collapse. I know it. Those buggars are not only holding up the roof; they hold the walls in place! But I really can't stand to give up the cathedral ceiling. In fact, if that were the ultimate answer, ..... I'm gonna have to sell this place! I won't do without the extra height! Hmph! (....arms crossed and lower lip protruding)

(....arms crossed and lower lip protruding)

At least you have a sense of humor.
fitZ