John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

OK, I have an issue that I need to consult about.

Glenn, I know you've been the main guru guiding me through this process, and I can't
tell you how much this has been appreciated ! If anyone else might be reading this thread,
and has an observation ... I would also welcome that perspective/insight.

Here's the upcoming issue.

The ceiling height of the new build is a significant limitation that I must deal with With
that in mind, I've been trying to eek out every fraction of an inch of head room. For reference,
I stand just over 6' tall [74"]. In the floorplan diagram I have marked with RED dots the
measurement of concrete floor to the bottom of the joist above. We are in a basement, and
there is the usual slope in the floor toward the sump pump area.

My inclination is to build the inner walls at a height that would utilize every fraction of an
inch of available height. To that cause, we would have to, basically, custom build each of
the walls [upon which the new ceiling rafters would rest]. OK ... so maybe that will be more
tedious and slow down the build. [Just to refresh ... new rafters will be interlaced 1/2"
below the joist, and then 2 layers of 5/8" drywall ceiling.]

The other problem may be for the drywallers. Their probably not gonna be smiling about this.
However, I am prepared to compensate properly

So, the question is ... am I overlooking something important !!! Am I creating unnecessary
hassles/issue over a 1 3/4" deferential ???

Please ... somebody straighten me out on this. What am I doing wrong or messing up ?

Thanks again for your patient guidance and insight.

Sincerely

I've been watching this thread closely because your basement looks just like mine. Your build looks great so far!

I'm no studio building expert, but I've built a lot of stuff. No cement floor is perfectly level no matter how long they float it. This is what I'd do, but others may have different ideas.

I'd get the sill and top plates in (with whatever decoupling you choose) and then size each stud to fit between. It takes longer, but I believe the results will be better than trying to frame it on the floor and stand it up. Make sure you use a good level.

The drywallers won't care. They are used to buildings being out of square. They take measurements for each piece, although they usually get away with a bit of slop because they can cover gaps at the bottom of the walls with baseboard molding. You don't want that. Make sure they know that those joints have to be close enough to seal with your backer rod and caulk.

I'll be keeping an eye on how your build progresses.

Mike

i would build the walls to whatever your shortest height is, then build up under the lowest sections (rip down something to sit under the bottom plate). this way your walls are consistent and the floor differential is compensated by building up.

Progress report ...

Hi Fallenmunk, [great sig name BTW]

Hey, nice to know someone else is watching the craziness over here:) But I confess, I too
have been following many of the threads on the board. Interesting to see the various ideas,
problems, reworked designs. Plus to read & see what the GURU's present. This has been an
interesting education for me. In particular, the thread from 'CRAMs basement jam room'. I saw
many similar issues to my basement. Not only that, but his 'documentation' made me envious.
When I read that he & his bros were jamming away without bothering anyone ... I was
re-enthused, and even more particular in the workmanship. Of course, those guys look like
they know their construction.
Thanks again for following ... the REAL entertainment should be starting soon !

Well .... yesterday was a major delivery date. As the forklift came down the drive, I once
again saw NOBODY but the driver ... who proceeded to drop the palette on the driveway,
handed me a paper to sign, then bat-turned and flew down the driveway in a cloud of kicked
up snow. I stood there staring at the load. Obviously ... no TIP for him
With the 'Ssss.....LUMBER UN-Loading Party' brochure that I quickly iPhone'd out, that
was also a miserable failure ... there was me ... stacking the piece in the garage.
Pix has been provided. That is Idaho Premium in regular and pressure treated.
All I can say is the aroma is marvelous

OK ... back to business.

... hmmm Glenn ... a little disappointed with the 'build to the lowest height' recommend
... no way to consider this as a 'slightly' SPLAYED ceiling

Here's the thing ... as scary as this may sound, I may be doing this, ala, SOLO [and I don't
mean the 'Man from U.N.C.L.E.' variety] It seems like all the construction crews
suddenly have more work than they need. The situation could change, but I'm thinking I'd
better be ready ... more tools have been purchase.

With this in mind, the custom build [although slower], would not be a bother to me. The 2
outer [surround] walls will have to be tied into the joist above, so that will be a custom cut
as I figure.

I checked the 'LEVEL' going across the joist bottoms, and they indeed look to be quite level,
which was my initial intent, to build parallel to the joist bottoms [rather than to the slope
in the floor. It may only be an 1 3/4" difference, but that might look 'off' in the room. Not
only that ... but every fraction of height gained would be appreciated !

Another concern would be cutting a wedge for under the bottom plate. I have no saw to do
that type of rip ... I'd have to go with shims ... and raising that much would put the 2x4's
out of plumb. [sorry ... kinda thinking/visualizing & typing at the same time]. I DON'T know,
and I'm certainly no expert on building ... I certainly don't want to create a problem, or screw
this up ... I'm just not sure I could do as good of job build-wise this way.
The custom build, level [parallel] below the joist seems more do-able for me.

Am I really missing something critical here ?!?!? I'll wait for replies before any further
ramblings

Sincerely

the build to the lowest height (assuming your joists across the ceiling are level? meaning the joists are not sloping your floor is sloping (or perhaps I interpreted it wrong...) then there is a point at which the floor and ceiling height is the lowest, yes? so make your stud frame to that height (or lower for the inner joists) - all studs the same etc. then build up under that as shown (using long self-tapping bolt anchors as the power shot anchors won't reach - all decoupling rules apply still). this way the top plate of your walls are at the desired height and you avoid trying to make a bunch of different length studs and toe nailing etc. you can simply build the wall flat and erect it into place... you could use blocks under each stud if that is simpler than ripping. i definitely am with you on preserving as much ceiling height...

Thanks for pointing me to the CRAM build. Good stuff there. Very similar to my space.

The main drawback to framing it the way I've suggested is that you have to toenail everything. No problem if you have a framing nailer. Otherwise, it is easier to toe screw it together.

Glenn's way is much easier.

I noticed that the CRAM build used sill foam under the base plates. I was considering neoprene. I'll wait to see what you use. I'll use treated wood for the sills plates for sure. My project is months away, but thanks for the great documentation and ideas!

Mike

Hi Fallenmunk,

Yeah, When you mentioned our similar builds, I thought you may find Crams' thread
of interest. In fact, any build could benefit just for the links he provided, and the advice
he got. Glad you found something useful there !

I wish that my build was still several months away, but since I had to tear out my previous
room, we have a case of serious Jones'n going on over here A few projects are
waiting in the wings [which is a nice compliment], but they have release schedule ... so I'm
trying my best to get things done ... but I'm not wanting to rush it with a sloppy job, or cut
corners to hit a deadline. With ALL its' limitations, this new room is very important to me and
my work ... and as crazy as it sounds .... my life.

Tonite my brother called to tell me that his choice carpenter may be available in a few
days. I have seen his work ... he is meticulous & precise ... and he ain't cheap I had
spoken with him earlier in the design phase for the door construction. I'll be finding out if
he'd be interested in the room build. In actuality .... the build is, really, quite straight
forward. There are a couple 'tricky' areas ... mainly around the sump pump 'kick-in', as this
is the only section built away from the center load beam. So a couple of the joist bins will
need some 'internal' blocking to handle the drywall with proper sealing.

Now that the lumber is here, I'll be leaving the virtual design, and going straight to reality!

I've already cut and temporarily placed to 2 wall plates that the outer walls will connect to
the foundation walls. The new saw [with the laser guide ] allowed me to snug these
pieces in place. [HEY ... I had it do something down here that looks like I've actually done
something here !!!]

Anyway ... the floor plates are single-piece-length/ section. The 14 footers are
very straight and true looking. Currently they are in the garage doing a slow warm to ambient
temperature before the move into the basement.

I'm familiar with both build techniques for the walls ... each have merit & trade-offs.
I [stubbornly] am still considering a 'hybrid' approach. My description should NOT be mis-
interpreted as 'this is the BEST way', but rather, how to handle the design objective.

First ... I'm looking at the outer walls, and the 'room within a room' walls as 2 different
concepts and implementation.

The outer walls [much like the 2 foundation walls] will more or less be tied into the structure.
In that I mean the top plates will connect to the joist above, while snugging up to the main
LB beam. They will also connect to the side foundation walls. I will anchor the bottom plates
to the concrete floor. With rubber tubing and neoprene washers for the anchors [which MAY
well be a mute point, or maybe a waste of effort, but if this is what is called for ... then that
is what I do]

Under the plates I was planning on the '3 bead' caulk. Some use the sill foam, others caulk,
while still others say its not needed. Seeing how lumber and concrete are not mirror smooth,
the caulking makes sense to me. I'll then follow up will 2 more beads on each plate side.

My issue with shimming is getting an air tight sealing of floor to plate. I prefer the plate in
full contact with the floor, allowing the 5 beads of caulking to fill a much tighter tolerance.

I'm also not a fan of toe-nailing, so the plan was this:
With 3 piece of 2x4 blocks stacked up, place a stud on top of that, and mark off the desired
length. Do this on BOTH ends. Now, pre-build the wall on the floor [even using temporary
finishing nails] to test the fit/ level, what have you. IF, and this is key, all is good ... then
back on the floor, insert remaining studs custom cut.

Anyway ... this was the cerebral plan This will take more work, for sure ... but for the
small build this is, it's negligible. I think either way, the drywall guy will face the same issue
and tolerance.

Apologies for this [another] long winded posting ... if I am totally missing an important point,
please accept my ignorance, and tell me. I don't want to give out even a hint of dis-respect,
especially to Glenn !!! Now watch ... I'll end up getting a lead framer that has HIS way to
do things

Oh well ... been a very long, emotionally draining day [not related to this]. Prays and tears
have gone out ...

Thank-you.

Your hybrid approach is sensible. Your framer will probably have some other ideas for you too.

I have the same issue with a LB beam on one of my walls. I was concerned to snug it up against the beam due to possible flanking. Maybe that's not a problem, but I'm planning on spacing my wall away from the beam just to be sure.

Glenn helped me out with a great design. I'm glad he is here and that Mr. Sayers has provided us with a great forum to advance the home studio to a new art. By the time I'm ready to build I'll be prepared. Rod's book has been a great help too.

I'll go back to lurking mode now.

We stand on the shoulders of giants.

Mike

I TOTALLY concur !!

This site and the people that share their experience/insight is absolutely wonderful.
Glenn has been so active here, and I'm constantly amazed at what he suggests from
the incredibly wide variety of builds going on.

The design he did for me, along with the technical guidance is invaluable to me.
I am trying to learn everything I can.

Again, I hope my previous posts ain't mis-interpreted. Once the pieces of lumber start to
be layout, we'll know what build strategy will or won't work. The key is listening to the
experts here, and don't cut corners or settle for '1/2 *ss'.
Sincerely.

no problems here. if you can go with the full plate it will be better for sealing and hopefully that expensive carpenter has the tools to do it...

Ahh Glenn, Thanks again!

progress report ... well, today was a day that took care of an issue that I just should
have done from the get go.

I had my electric friend over this morning to FINALLY clear out [re-route] the last of the
overhead wires in the ceiling above. I was trying to be conservative, and not disturb the
house ... but the more I looked at the design & build, the work & possible compromise was just not worth it.
We are now ................... 'Bin Free' !
Now I can choose to go with 2x8's for the new rafters.
This guy does very nice work ... like he'd be doing for his studio. We did have to pull a new
line through the upstairs floor [as expected], but it all went very smooth. There was 1 line
[2 conductor] that was spliced across a joist, then it continued up into the ceiling joist out toward the garage. I measured 6.4 vac across it. Nobody seemed to be certain exactly what that line is for ?!?! Might be a 'heater wrap' for the line in the garage, a possible doorbell line that was never installed, or ... maybe the launch circuit for NORAD. Since I've NOT heard
anything on CNN, and everything else is working fine ... it will remain the proverbial mystery

This evening, another brother stopped in and we carried down 16 2x4x14' into the basement.
Mostly needed someone to help navigate down the stairs and over the pile stack on the
other side of the basement.

I've enclosed a quick photo of the cleared out rafters, though it's tough to get a good
perspective to get a shot off.

No word yet on a lead carpenter I'm readying myself for solo mode. I've been 'boning'
up on framing techniques. I did see something interesting on framing corners.

In one example, they used the double end studs & then a 'turned' stud to provide drywall
attach area. But in another example, I saw the use of 3 2x4 studs together. Almost like
a door jam area. I wonder WHICH is the better way for my build. Any thoughts on this ???
In the meantime, waiting to hear back from contractor bro

That's all the news that's fit to print !

Good meeting with contractor Bro this afternoon, to review the room & scope out any
potential issues.

A question has come regarding 'TOP Plates' [again]

OK ... definitely understood that the INNER walls [with ceiling rafter support duties] would
require a double top plate. The BIG question/problem ... to figure out HOW to attach the
very top plate due to the restriction of working area inside the joist bins ?!?!?
Maybe I need to track down an angled drill gun ? or should we consider a dab of 'Liquid Nails'
at those corners ???

The SECOND question, again the dbl top plates, now for the 2 outer walls. I have the lumber,
so that's not the issue, but my brother [nor I] understand the need for dbl top plates for
the walls that will connect to the joist above ??? They 'may' be considered somewhat of
an assist to support the joist. The other important factor may be to provide structure
to the outer wall with major consideration of the Super Door?!?
Again ... the main issue is HOW to attach these areas ... physically.

I know we've talked about this. I'll be scanning through 'other' builds to see what was done,
but I've not yet found a clear working solution.

Thank-you again for your help on all this.

We look to begin wall construction this Tuesday. Wow ....

Sincerely.

before you add any additional studs in the corner for nailers, you could drive the fasteners up through the corners where the plates join...

RJHollins wrote:The BIG question/problem ... to figure out HOW to attach the
very top plate due to the restriction of working area inside the joist bins ?!?!?

I'm confused by that question, probably me not understanding. The top plate of the wall should not be inside the bins as far as I know. You usually need some blocking between joists for nailers when framing your wall parallel to the joists so that you have something to nail to. Getting the blocking in is where you usually run into clearance problems.

Hi Fallenmonk,

The 'top plate' in question is on the 'inner room' build. The 'room' that will NOT be attach
to any of the existing structure [just the floor will be common].
The joist depth that I have is now 6 3/4" ... this is due to the 1" of Formular to cover the
protruding nails, and then 2 layers of 5/8" drywall over that. The other bad issue is that the
available ceiling height is ~ 7'. Because of this, I need to grab every fraction I can get, so
I'm looking to set the new ceiling rafter height to a 1/2" BELOW the structure joist bottoms.
Trying to hammer or screw the top plate from the TOP is what I'd prefer. To that hope, I did
pick up a $20 attachment for the drill ... its' a 90* converter. Thinking of using deck screws
with a type of star driver head. This may be very wishful on my part. The 'back-up' plan
is to go as Glenn suggests [THANK-YOU].

Anyway ... kinda beat today. We actually started framing the walls. The lead guy that was
going to do this is out sick, so my brother had some time open. I know we didn't get as much
done as HE thought we would, nonetheless, we got a lot done on the outer wall.
It is amazing the issue that come up during the actual building process. Needless to say,
the idea of a SQUARE wall [or anything] in a 50 year old house is a total fantasy
Number 2 ... have a small sledge hammer on standby ... and 3 ... it is wise to order extra
lumber. Not saying ya need this ... but ... if ya do, you have something to beat it into submission,
or a new replacement piece

Tomorrow we look to tidy up a couple spots, and maybe start laying out the inner room.