UAN - new Control Room build

[RJHollins]

Progress report ...

Thank-you Gentlemen, I've started filling in the corners & edges with extra studs.
This is now the view of the CR front left corner.

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I'll have to place an order for more 2x4's, as the ones that are left over are kinda dogs
I'm happy to add these 'extras', as it will definitely help drywall install, AND, the added
strength of the overall inner build.

I could put it off no longer ... it was time to deal with the kick-in space in the joist bin.

I decided that I would keep Glenn's' suggesting [an easier way] as my back-up plan, thus
opting for my original strategy .... getting in there and blocking out a frame within each
bin so that drywall could be attached.

So I dug out the saw, a vice, and a set of chisels & hammer
I measured & fit a 2x4 along the top of the bin. I side 'leveled' it to the top plate of the
outer wall. Once marked out, I prep'd it with screws and locked it in. I then cut a piece to
go on top of the top plate. Next was to deal with the sides. I had previously installed those
furring strips up there ... and just to note, there was NO WAY that I was able to get those
things out [unless I wanted to make a huge mess]. So they were there to stay.
The fun part was to notch a 2x4 to fit the sides of the bin. After cutting the small block,
I measured for the notch out. With a saw I cut my 'bottom' to the depth of the notch.

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Then brought out the chisel ...

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Quite easily the piece popped off

PL_PID_1000000252.jpg

At this stage, I've only placed the pieces in the bin ... the hard part may be the actual
attaching

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Each of the 3 bins has to have a custom solution. So I basically cut & fit each one.
If this all works, I'll take pix.
I'm holding off the final nail or screwing until I'm certain we have everything set in the
sump pit area. We still have the 2 ceiling joist to turn and attach ... and I also have to get
in there with the rest of the required insulation ... so I want to be sure to have some elbow
room

That about it for the moment ... dealing with a snow storm, and 'Super Sunday' ... see
what can get done ... and there's plenty yet to do.

[xSpace]

I have gone back over this thread and there is something that has bothered me. The blocking you took out of the joists...you did not re-install that did you?

I commented some time back on this thread:
"To over stress the importance of the blocking could only be done to someone that understands why it is there to begin with. It has a two-fold purpose one being to spread the flexing ability across all the joists rather than having each individual joist try to depend on the overhead nailing/plywood. Secondly, and most importantly, to reduce the potential for roll over of the joists under impact or even day to day dead loading.

Diagonal bracing is difficult to re-install in a joist system, blocking is easier, nailing is important, staggered blocks are easier to install than one straight line/pattern."


This should have been verified by either accredited person on this project.

For the record...if you remove the blocking....you re-install the blocking...it is not an either or situation in the hunt for the always illusive extra head room.

It is a building "technique" not a modification that can made to suit a retro fitted room that is being given higher priority than the structure itself.

[RJHollins]

Hi Brien,

'This should have been verified by either accredited person on this project.'

The 'replacing' the original joist bracing was an issue that I thought was mandatory from
the outset of the design.

Even after multiple conversations with my contractor [who is also a licensed Inspector],
I was told that the bracing would not be needed. I wanted our structural engineer back in
to, again, view & re-evaluate ... which he did. He re-iterated the same conclusion.
Blocking not required.

My layman's observation is just that. When I walk about the upstairs area, the side ABOVE
the Control Room is noticeably FIRMER than it ever was before. The other side of the house
feels the the same as it was before any changes.

Second ... the lack of floor squeaks above the control room have improved dramatically.
The 'other side' is a noisy [squeaky] as it has been.

I pointed this out as the Structural Eng & contractor walked about the house inspecting.
I know that these are both experienced people, with NOTHING to gain [in other words] they
were not trying to do me a favor, nor do I even think they would if I asked.

I was 'surprised' at the outset ... I had even hung a plumb line from the center of the CR
attacked to the floor joist. I taped a magic marker pen suspended an 1/8- 1/4" above a
piece of paper on the floor. With all the movement/traffic upstairs that day ... not a single
mark. [I did check that the ink was still 'wet' and that it would leave a mark.]

So ... that's all I know

It has now been several months since the removal ... I'm am down here through the noisy
days and the silent nights. Absolutely nothing has been seen NOR heard that has cause any
kind of concern. nothing ... which I might add RELIEVES me to no end !!!!

Ironically ... my contractor was the one who insisted on dual 2x6 ceiling joist, instead of
the acceptable single. I was not happy at first ... with concern about insulation in the bins.
But I must say, I'm glad I listened to his advice. I am amazed at how structurally sound &
solid this inner room has become ... and still more studs need to go in. Tonite I started
putting in a few blocks between the studs. My confidence level has gone up, particularly
when the super door is soon to be built.

Brien ... I want to express my deep appreciation for your knowledged insights/concerns
and guidance.

Sincerely !
RJH

[xSpace]

two things. get a local inspector in there...you will have to get a permit and that might be a challenge at this stage.

number 2 .I am not talking to hear myself talk...I am indicting your engineer and the contractor.


Let's be fair with each other...I don't care what you do...but what you are doing is incorrect especially if it is sanctioned by papered personal.



If i remember correctly, the area in question was approx. 33% of the base of this structures that was allowed to be modified....like I said, your not convincing me since I already know what can and can not be done.


Just to be on record...that's all we are doing here...

[RJHollins]

Hi Brien,

I have zero issue over the concern you've expressed ... I am NOT quite sure I
follow your statement of ".... sanctioned by papered personal.", nor the
"... indicting your engineer and the contractor."

For CERTAIN ... I make NO attempt to change your view nor conclusions.

I can say that when this project was in design, part of my responsibility was to call in
experts to evaluate both the existing structure AND the proposed new build.

The original design called for a 'channeled' ceiling to be hung off the upper floor joist. After
lengthy discussion with the structural engineer, it was MY decision to abandon that ceiling
design ... NOT because the building couldn't support it, but that ANY possible deflection of the
upstairs would be transfered to the ceiling. At that early stage, we had nothing added into
the bins [the beefing up process]. With no empirical evidence one way or the other, I said
no to that design. The engineer [during his inspection] took measurements, the house
architectural plans, and dimensions, and in about 2 weeks sent me a ceiling design that
basically match the alternately designs that were presented here in this forum. Looking at
these 2 independent designs convinced me that this was a better plan.

When we completed the 'beefing' process, I had already had the structural engineer back
to view the work that was done. In that conversation, it was again stated that the blocking
could be left out above the control room. This, nor our first meeting, were a causal, off
the cuff conversation. I do know this engineer ... and have personally sat in on a house
design that he was reviewing and over-road the clients engineer. This was with my brother
who was the contractor, and he had concerns and so went for another review. This guy
is no paper pusher, and no matter what, nor whom, would compromise his reputation.
I don't even need to question that my contractor [brother] would in NO way jeopardize the
house nor his mother, father ... and even me ... for this project. I could just as easily [sure
for more money] put up a new building on the property. There are no cutting corners, nor
any favors being extended, AND I will not take work for free ... fortunately I don't have too.

I'm looking at this new room as an expensive experiment. WHY ... because I am from the
old school design [well, at least the 70's], and this current design is different. About the
closest I can compare would be Denny Percels mastering room in Nashville [RIP].
If the future is good, I have no hesitation to build a free standing room that would allow
much better room ratios. This current build is my testing/learning.

As I stated, I make no attempt to calm the concerns you have expressed. I am certainly
not a structural engineer, so I called in a respected expert to personally inspect and make
HIS recommendation from being on site. We did follow-ups upon my request.

Additionally ... when the ceiling joist materials came under question, we got conflicting
expert opinions. Originally, we spec'd for 2x8's to be used as first stipulated by the struc
eng. I inquired for mod. We got span data for 2x6's and according to 3 sources said that
we were still in an acceptable range. My contractor would not accept this. He went back
to his expert, and wanted them doubled. That is what we did. I know someone will object
to that spec, but since they gone in and we've hung and tried to bounce them, I am very
happy that we did the double [liquid nailed, clamped, & then nailed]. We also have added
surface to screw 2 layers of drywall into.

So yes, I am trying to maximize this build. Trying to do it to the best ability. I don't need to
cut any corners. I take all matters very seriously.

[RJHollins]

Progress report ...

Over the past couple days we've had a chance to get a few hours of work, and
conversation in. Not only evaluating the build to this point [ALL aspects ] along with
the next steps.

With all the stud walls framed out, I've gone ahead and installed the stud blocks between.
Working by myself, I had to come up with a working system to do this. Using 2 measured
furring strips and 4 clamps and 4 set up blocks, I was able to go from bin to bin methodically.
A clamp was used to secure the furring strip for height on both sides. I then used 2 more
clamps [attached to each other], and stretch them across the studs; allowing me to pull
them in tight & straight to the block. Power nailer secured them. The adjacent bin had 2
blocks [2x4] placed under furrings to offset the height for easier nailing.

PL_PID_1000000256.jpg

That went smooth

Still tough to get a good overall pic, but here's a couple views.

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PL_PID_1000000259.jpg

I have one bin opened as yet so that I can still easily move into the room.

With all the floor plates secured, and all the extra nailer studs in place, it was time to get
some caulking done to the frame. I needed to modify a caulk tube in order to get into the
really tight places [between the foundation wall, & between the 2 stud walls. For that I
cut a piece of clear tubing and attach a small 90 degree 'spout' and secured both ends
with screw clamps.

PL_PID_1000000261.jpg

The 'mod' worked better than expected ... I also used my handy caulk spreader

Here's one of the corner walls afterward.

PL_PID_1000000260.jpg

So I probably got carried away with the caulking of the stud corners ... the fumes took over
and ... there you have it

Insulation, the door, and HVAC are on the schedule

Thanks for watching over !

[gullfo]

very nice! cool tool innovations as well!

[RJHollins]

Progress report ...

Wall Insulation ... Johns Manville Thermal & Sound Control [Formaldehyde-Free]

I don't care if they say its' 'ITCH FREE' .... its insulation ... still itches

Anyway ... got a start cutting & fitting pieces in. I did staple some of the panels, and
then decided to hold on that and get all the pieces cut & placed first ... then staple.
during the night I run an electrostatic air cleaner to pull fibers out of the air.

Once again the dramatic change in the room sound . Sound isolation has
definitely gone up, as no one has noticed the shop vac running. Still the room is wide open
in several spots ... but it is encouraging !

Only a few pixs at this point. I want to get this insulation part completed ... and hit the
shower

At this point nearly all the bins are full ... just a couple custom cuts to handle. Trouble
getting any decent pixs as I now need to get some mobile lighting into the room!

Back to it !!

Thanks.

[gullfo]

oh man! you're covering up all that nice framing and caulked ceiling drywall

[RJHollins]

oh man! you're covering up all that nice framing and caulked ceiling drywall

I feel the same way

But the addition of the 'boring' look of insulation has again dramatically altered the acoustics
of the room.

Even though the room has several openings, yet ... others in the house have not been
noticing when I run the shop vac, or cutting with the saw. This is promising.


Got a quick question please ...

I still need to add more insulation up in the ceiling [either side of the new joist, and was
wondering ... DOES it matter if insulation is installed with the 'side view' exposed, rather than
the 'normal' face side ???

I thinking that I could cut strips of R19 to the depth that I need to touch the back of the
new drywall ceiling, and use the thickness to cover the width of the opening. This would
expose the insulation on its side.

Any issue with that idea/concept ???

Thanks!

[gullfo]

no issue with doing that. you want to make sure you're dampening the ceiling but also not causing a short circuit between the new ceiling the existing flooring. so no packing the insulation...

[RJHollins]

... you want to make sure you're dampening the ceiling but also not causing a short circuit between the new ceiling the existing flooring. so no packing the insulation...

Hi Glenn,

OK ... have a tough question to get an answer.

I'm dealing with the insulation in the ceiling between the joists.

The original floor joist are 16"oc. The bin 'openings' average ~ 14". There are also 2 furring
strips on the sides, so that takes some real estate.

Between them we have dual 2x6's for the new ceiling, with a 'showing' width of 3".

The Johns Manville insulation is R-13, 3-1/2"x15".

I've read [and been told by you] mostly cautionary reminders NOT to over pack. I've also
read & seen pics from other builds, and I must say, I am concerned about my install.
Secondly ... I'm NOT sure if I'm doing this correctly.

Please excuse my asking such a stupid question ... but, I'm NOT sure HOW to tell if I'm
packing to tight

I've enclosed pics ... but still ... I'm expecting you to be able to tell from a photo

You've made it clear how important this is. The trouble I see is once the ceiling drywall goes
up ... it'll be too late if I did it wrong.

I'm hoping you might see if there's a problem ... or if I can, in any way, provide more info
or pics that would help you !

To explain ... I installed the first layer of R-13. Tried to keep it 'loose' to the floor above.
The second layer I tried 'crowning' the edges up, allowing the middle to 'sag' below the
ceiling line. The drywall would then push up against when installed.

I'd sure like your observations on this ... or maybe some 'touch-y, feel-y' guidelines
to get me a better sense of what I should do.

Playing with this stuff is no way fun ... but I need to do this correctly, and NOT botch your
design.

Anyway ... here's pics ... please don't hesitate to request additional info or photos!

Thank-you again for your patience and guidance !

Sincerely.

[gullfo]

you're going to need a stem micropressure gauge and touching no more than 6 fibers at a time, and using a hydraulic stabilizing platform to hold it steady, look for no more that 300 microbars of resistance every 4" on the entire ceiling.

or you could just feel it, if you can tap on the inner joists and its conducting to the upper joists, you have it too tight. if you can tap it and there's no conduction, i'd just push of the insulation to how it will sit with the drywall and check again. from what i'm seeing it looks ok in principle.

[RJHollins]

man ... the hidden costs of building a control room.

I tracked down one of these bad boys ...
as soon as I update my glass prescription I can start reading the manual.

0ryfnpgn.jpg

OH ... and then there is the support team ...

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They may not look like much ... and whatever they were saying ... I don't know ...
it was rather muffled.

Of course ... then came the building Inspectors ... again ...

SRT%20DEC%202006%20002.jpg

I ought to get the report back in a few weeks ... which is fine since I've run out of
insulation ... and I need, at least, another bag

[RJHollins]

progress report ...

I'm happy to have finally finish the insulation up in the ceiling!

As soon as I stop itching, I'll post some pics

I also did the 'plastic sheet duck taped' to the concrete floor to check for moisture.
Left it there over several days. Not even a hint of moisture. Looks like we'll be able
to lay in a laminate type flooring

itch ... itch ... scratch ....