Making-Do Townhouse Basement (Pictures)

How thick should my walls be, should I float my floors (and if so, how), why is two leaf mass-air-mass design important, etc.

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Rufer
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2004 7:08 am
Location: Alexandria, VA

Post by Rufer »

knightfly wrote:Joint compound (mud) for voids, caulk the edges... Steve
Awesome thanks for the quick and the to-the-point response.
andy_eade wrote:Hey Neighbour. Good to see someone in my backyard at a similar stage with a similar project. I am about to start the beef up stage and am out in Herndon VA. Hopefully we can help trade info on local suppliers etc and bounce things off one another...
Absolutely. Good luck on your project.

As you can see, since the beginning I've been trying to "make-do" with what I have to work with. And in recent months it's becoming obvious that I'm having to make-do more and more. I'm going to have a couple of weak links for sure, so who knows what level of isolation I'll have in the end but I've got to work with what I have and adapt when all is said and done.
Rufer
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2004 7:08 am
Location: Alexandria, VA

Post by Rufer »

Okay, so from what I gather in my continued browsing of this board is that the current theory is only the inner-most leaf needs to be air-tight.

With that said, let's say my outer-layer---in this case the subfloor and wooden floor above---is pretty porous:

Would the level of isolation I receive be the same if I used all of my materials on my inner layer than if I split them up, beefing up the outer and using half on the inner?

I don't mind really short answers if someone knows with a high-degree of certainty but is strapped for time.

Thanks a lot.
knightfly
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Post by knightfly »

Not quite - unbalanced inner and outer leaves of any m-a-m sound barrier will be about 1 or 2 dB worse at low frequencies than balanced ones.

I'm not sure how you arrived at your conclusion about outer leaves not needing to be sealed; I may have worded something wrong.

What I've said on the subject is relative to EACH LEAF of the wall or ceiling - and it's only if you can assure a PERFECT caulk line - under those circumstances, only the outer LAYER of each LEAF of the barrier would need to be caulked.

The reality is, better to use backer rod/caulk for EACH LAYER of EACH LEAF. (Murphy's law, an' all that )

But this applies to EACH LEAF, or in other words each Mass of the mass-air-mass construct. So if you have a porous upper leaf (your sub floor) with cracks, etc, this WILL negatively affect your isolation. The very least you should do in that case is to caulk all cracks/holes, or use a drywall knife and "mud" and smooth a layer of mud over the entire underside of the subfloor if possible.

HTH... Steve
Soooo, when a Musician dies, do they hear the white noise at the end of the tunnel??!? Hmmmm...
Rufer
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2004 7:08 am
Location: Alexandria, VA

Post by Rufer »

knightfly wrote:
I'm not sure how you arrived at your conclusion about outer leaves not needing to be sealed; I may have worded something wrong.
In all liklihood, I probably made a flying leap to that interpration and ran with it. Thanks for clearing that up.
knightfly wrote:The very least you should do in that case is to caulk all cracks/holes, or use a drywall knife and "mud" and smooth a layer of mud over the entire underside of the subfloor if possible.
Can you estimate about how much mudding a smooth layer would weigh?

Also, earlier when you helped me with the span tables, you said I would be pushing it with two layers of gyp, I'm not sure if in the breakdown it included the weight of insulation. If I use R19, how much will that add to my dead load?
knightfly
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Post by knightfly »

Mud (although I've not actually weighed it) seems to be maybe a bit lighter than gyp - probably around 70% of an equivalent thickness of gypsum. A thin coat (just enough to fill cracks and come out smooth) should be about 0.6 PSF or thereabouts.

Insulation; typical "fluffy stuff" runs around 0.8 pcf, so standard 6" batts of R19 would run about 0.4 psf. My original estimate on page 2 did NOT include insulation or I'd have listed it. Kind of wierd, because I normally don't exclude insulation from sound calculations considering the difference it makes...

One possible help here - can you tell me exactly what your subfloor and any other layers are? it's possible I may have overestimated that part of the weight. I see what looks like diagonal boards, and they look too wide to be typical 2x6 t&g. If you can describe exactly what's above your joists, I'll recalculate and see how we're doing... Steve
Last edited by knightfly on Wed Mar 22, 2006 9:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Soooo, when a Musician dies, do they hear the white noise at the end of the tunnel??!? Hmmmm...
Rufer
Posts: 23
Joined: Thu Dec 30, 2004 7:08 am
Location: Alexandria, VA

Post by Rufer »

Steve, thanks once again for taking the time.

Here's the deal---my project, as my topic title states, is doing the best I can reasonably do for isolation given my less-than ideal situation/location.

I've decided that framing new joists in not an option so I'll have to use the existing joists. Also, beefing up in between the existing joists with sheetrock is turning out to be a major pain in the butt. Getting the fit good and tight and the cleats tightly sealed around both of their edges is a rarity and I'm afraid I'm wasting materials/weight/and a TON of effort. Since I'm dealing with weight issues, I may be better off just using my weight and materials on the ceiling itself.

Most of the joists are 16" apart. But there is a pair where they are only 3" apart---making beefing up with sheetrock and cleats pretty much impossible.

What is currently above right now are those diagonal slats that you see. They are a good deal thinner than 2X6's. I'll have to measure when I get home but they could be 1X6's or even thinner.

Peaking in between the diagonal slats, from the underside I see what almost looks like a heavy-duty composite type sheet material--almost cardboard-like appearance. On the top-side, that is the floor above is a hardwood floor.

The measured 15' span I gave earlier is the joists at their longest---which I'm sure is what you wanted. However, this is probably only 1/3 of the ceiling. The remainder are probably 10 feet long and are resting on metal joist collars attached to a beam. This is probably just unnecessary info. so feel free to disregard.

The main room of our small house is right above where we have a couple of love-seats, coffee table, TV, etc. and is where most of where most of the entertaining/hanging out is done.

If I abandon beefing up between the joists with sheetrock, what are my options?

I'll be using RC and insulation. Could I hang two sheets of 1/2"? My walls are 3 layers of 5/8". Am I wasting materials here considering the weakest link/flanking/etc.?

Thanks again.
andy_eade
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Post by andy_eade »

Hey Rufer,

It's your neighbour here again. Following your thread with great interest and wanted to find out more about the beef up process you were following. I just ordered my drywall and hope to begin this stage towards the end of the week.

I have a few primary questions:

- How are you securing the beef up layers to the floor above? Nails? Screws? 1x3's around the perimeter?

- You mentioned cleats - what are these?

- Are you taping and mudding joints?

- Are you using backer rod and caulk around the perimter?

I wish I could help you on your question, but Steve is much better equipped. I don't even know enough to be dangerous yet! :D I'm keeping my fingers crossed though that there is a solution and you can continue with the beefing up (as painful as it may be right now) since I beleive you will be happy with the extra isolation to the upstairs when all is said and done.

I would be really interested to see some photos of your challenge and the beefing up you've completed if you get a chance.

Keep up the good work!

Andy
That which doesn't kill you makes you stronger... still, wear a hard-hat just in case!

http://www.andreweade.com
knightfly
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Post by knightfly »

Looking at the pix of your joists, it seems that the only thing in your way other than the x bracing is a few wires and a pipe or two;

I doubt you'll be happy with your isolation if you don't take care of the upper leaf first, this will make a VERY noticeable difference. Here's what I'd do -

Temporarily remove ALL those cross-braces; it's not gonna make anything fall down short term, those are just to keep your floor from learning how to squeak and your joists from twisting since they're only held captive at the two ends.

Precut all the inserts you're going to use in one joist bay, and if your joists aren't quite parallel make sure each insert is numbered or otherwise marked so you know where it will fit; these don't have to be a really tight fit, because you're gonna use mud to make up the difference.

Fill all those cracks thorougly with drywall mud, smooth the surface with the drywall knife, and while the stuff is still wet put your first insert in place (probably a 4' long piece, since it's easier to work with) - using 4 pieces of 1x scrap wood and 4 clamps (or screws), push the 4 boards END-wise up against your insert about a foot from each end, clamp or screw the 1x scraps temporarily, fill around the edges of the insert with mud, then drop the wood scraps on one side of the insert at a time and start the second layer up into the joist cavity. This will be a LOT easier if you have a helper, or two extra hands growing out of your head :roll:

Work both layers of beef-up material up into the joist cavity, filling in any void areas with drywall mud, and while it's still wet press your PERMANENT cleats up against the edges of the drywall and fasten with screws to the joist - 1 screw every 8" is plenty.

Do each joist bay the same way.

Once all the bays are done, caulk anywhere there looks like any kind of a gap, no matter how small - then replace your x braces; it's probable that you'll need to trim the braces enough to make up for the extra thickness of joists at the upper ends of each x brace due to the 1x cleating that's holding your extra layers up between joists.

In your case, where your spans are close to max, I'd just use ONE layer of 5/8 wallboard up between joists, so you can keep your double layer UNDER along with insulation - but it's REALLY important that you mud those cracks between subfloor boards first.

Once your beef is up and the x bracing back in place, you can insulate and hang your lower layers - remember, no hard contact between any of your inner leaf and your outer leaf except between wall frames and floor - you want your inner leaf NOT flanking sound into the framework of the house... Steve
Soooo, when a Musician dies, do they hear the white noise at the end of the tunnel??!? Hmmmm...
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