Rooster studio - new space in existing basement

How thick should my walls be, should I float my floors (and if so, how), why is two leaf mass-air-mass design important, etc.

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Soundman2020
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Re: Rooster studio - new space in existing basement

Post by Soundman2020 »

Are you saying this in reference to my question about using sway braces to connect the outer leaf walls to the joists above? If so, I hear you loud and clear; I should not use sway braces to connect the outer leaf walls to the outer leaf joists or ceiling. Right?
Exactly! Just attach all of your outer leaf walls to each other, and to the floor above you, so that they form one single continuous, sealed unit. Then build the inner-leaf inside that, with the sway braces where needed to stabilize the walls.
Does that also mean it's fine to use the foundation wall as one of my outer leaf walls (the thing that I was freaking out about in my last post)?
Correct! No need to freak out... :) The foundation wall plus the new outer-leaf walls can all be tied together as one unit, no sway braces or isolation or decoupling needed. The only decoupling that you need is between the inner-leaf and the outer leaf: they must be kept apart from each other. But the individual parts of each leaf do not need to be separated from the other parts of that leaf.
Does that also mean it's fine to use the foundation wall as one of my outer leaf walls (the thing that I was freaking out about in my last post)?
I'm not sure if that is designed to be a sway brace, but it might work. Call the manufacturer and make sure it will be OK for what you want to do.

This is the more common type of sway brace:
http://www.mason-industries.com/masonin ... N=98880182
I apologize for making you re-hash any advice you've already given.
No problem! If I didn't explain it clearly the first time, then it's good that you double-check! :)
missmoo
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Re: Rooster studio - new space in existing basement

Post by missmoo »

Thanks a lot Stuart!

Oh, and thanks Brian (from a while back) for letting me know about the vapor barrier being in the wrong place.

Now I have a question about ventilation. Would I need two dead vent mechanisms: one for intake and one for exhaust? I've found some general information about building dead vents, but I'd love to find some more detailed information. If I had fresh air coming from the utility space and exhausting into the music room, wouldn't I need some kind of way to get the fresh air back out of the room? Does having a mini-split change the exhaust/intake approach at all?

I just found this product (below). What do you think of this design? Trying to decide if I should build my own or buy it..
http://www.gretchken.com/acoustic_venti ... ystems.htm
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Re: Rooster studio - new space in existing basement

Post by Soundman2020 »

What do you think of this design? Trying to decide if I should build my own or buy it..
Only 50 CFM??? I might be wrong, but that doesn't seem like much for your room. Are you sure you calculated that correctly? What occupancy, flow rate and room-changes did you use when you figured that?
If I had fresh air coming from the utility space and exhausting into the music room,
It's not a good idea to exhaust from one room into the next one: if you do that, the music room will get the hot, stale air from the control room, and end up with an unpleasant atmosphere. Rather, you should exhaust to the outside, if you can, or at least into the common basement area, close to your home HVAC system return intake.
Does having a mini-split change the exhaust/intake approach at all?
No. All the mini-split does is to cool the air, and de-humidify it correctly. It does not change anything about the fresh air / exhaust air system.

- Stuart -
missmoo
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Re: Rooster studio - new space in existing basement

Post by missmoo »

Thanks Stuart.

We have forced hot water here (converted from steam). Good old fashioned radiators with a mess of cast iron pipes in the basement. There is no AC - just ceiling fans in each room in the house...regardless, can I install the ventilation to vent from the unfinished utility area?

Only the music room is going to be sealed. The hangout room is not going to be air tight. Based on having 4 people in there and 15 cfm I think we need 2.34 air exchanges per hour. A 50 cfm fan would get us 3.86 air exchanges per hour. I must be doing something wrong here.

I searched for some information on building your own system with silencers, etc. Do you know a good location for that?

Also, back to the framing details - which I hope to repost this weekend...
1. 3 beads of acoustic caulk under each sill plate?
2. 3 studs on each side of the door plus a couple for the header? Just thinking this through for Detail 5 revisions as the door is in that wall.
3. Do you think we need double top plates at the inner leaf? I haven't shown any and we are only at 7' tall...but I am not sure if sagging is going to be an issue.

Thanks again for all your help.
missmoo
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Re: Rooster studio - new space in existing basement

Post by missmoo »

This forum has been so generous with its support during the course of our studio design. The assistance is so appreciated. I am not sure I am doing something wrong, but I am hoping to find some help here as construction is underway on our studio. The floor is leveled, the hang out room and work is underway to seal all the cracks in the existing subfloor above.
I had a question about the framing of the inside out wall. This is Detail 4 where the sound proof wall separates the furnace area of the unfinished utility space from the studio. In this wall, the outer leaf is an inside out wall - the only wall of this kind of any of the inner or outer leaves. The inside out wall frames in to two "standard" framed double leaf walls (i.e. the drywall is at the outer face). My question is: how does the double layer of drywall on the inside of the "inside out" wall meet the 2 other outer leaf walls at the corner given that these are not inside out walls?
In other words, what does the interior corner condition look like? How does the drywall terminate/seal?
I am not even sure if I am making any sense....
Thanks in advance for all your help.
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Re: Rooster studio - new space in existing basement

Post by Soundman2020 »

This forum has been so generous with its support during the course of our studio design. The assistance is so appreciated. I am not sure I am doing something wrong,
You are not doing anything wrong at all! Sadly, there's an awful lot of activity on the forum right now, and not too many folks helping out with answers. I wish there were more people answering questions, but right now it is what it is.... :( So it can take a while to get a response.
My question is: how does the double layer of drywall on the inside of the "inside out" wall meet the 2 other outer leaf walls at the corner given that these are not inside out walls?
The drywall on the two does not have to actually meet: As long as the studs in the corner are tightly sealed to each other, and the drywall is firmly attached to the studs, then you are fine. The total surface density of the wood studs is higher than the total surface density of two layers of drywall, so that keeps the mass consistent across the wall.
I am not even sure if I am making any sense....
Perfect sense! I hope I managed to explain the answer as clearly as you explained the question! If not, then I can do a quick diagram for you.

- Stuart -
missmoo
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Re: Rooster studio - new space in existing basement

Post by missmoo »

Thank you, again and again.
Construction is underway. It is going a lot slower than we have anticipated...for sure....
But, we have completed the installation of the drywall between the joist cavities (the outer leaf). These have been done according to plans.
But, the guy who's putting our framing in delivered some materials to the job site this morning for the next round - which includes insulating the existing foundation walls. These foundation walls are to follow Detail 1 and include rigid r-10 insulation on wood furring. Followed by a 1" air gap. Then the 2X4 inner stud wall filled with batt insulation and then get the vapor barrier, the two layers of drywall with green glue.
The contractor dropped off foil faced rigid insulation to go against the foundation wall on the furring - and also faced batt insulation? Doesn't that create too many vapor barriers - and put the vapor barriers in the wrong place? Help!
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Re: Rooster studio - new space in existing basement

Post by Soundman2020 »

The contractor dropped off foil faced rigid insulation to go against the foundation wall on the furring - and also faced batt insulation? Doesn't that create too many vapor barriers - and put the vapor barriers in the wrong place?
To my way of thinking, yes it does! Brien is the guy who can answer that for sure, but it certainly seems to me that there are going to be multiple potential vapor barriers in there, when you need one, and only one.

- Stuart -
missmoo
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Ventilation

Post by missmoo »

I've edited this post to make it more concise. Hopefully this works!
------------

We've got the room built FINALLY. It took 5 months. I cannot thank you enough, Stuart and others in this forum!!!!

Now I'm working on incorporating ventilation. From what I've gathered (and please correct me if I'm wrong), I'm going to need two vents:
- One vent will pull air from the adjacent basement room into the soundproof room ("fresh air")
- One vent will pull air from the soundproof room to another side of an adjacent basement room

Here are some questions:

1. Ted White's dead vent designs (here - http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/upl ... rofile.jpg call for a minimum footprint of 90" x 24" X 24" (outside of the soundproof space). Are there other designs that are more compact and still effective? What about flatter, smaller baffle boxes?

2. If there aren't other designs that are more compact, I'm afraid that I don't have available space to achieve the 90" x 24" x 24" dimensions. Will the dead vent design still function effectively if I have lower volume? I can easily accommodate 74" x 24" x 24"? I can also accommodate 79" x 24" x 24" for the other vent.

3. If the lower volume designs won't be effective, can I change the dimensions but retain the same volume? I can squeeze in the following dimensions, but would they work?
- 74" x 24" x 29"
- 79" x 16" x 40"
- 79" x 18" x 36"

4. Do I need to build an access panel so I can get to the fan in case something with the fan malfunctions? Or would I just cut open the drywall in that case?

5. How will I "balance" the airflow between the two vents/fans? I know absolutely nothing about HVAC.

6. Can I make up for a smaller footprint by using denser insulation? If I use mineral wool instead of r13 will that help?

Thank you!
missmoo
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Re: Rooster studio - new space in existing basement

Post by missmoo »

Any thoughts on the deadvent questions? My progress and music is blocked until I identify the locations for my dead vents and I would greatly appreciate any insights.

Thanks
Soundman2020
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Re: Rooster studio - new space in existing basement

Post by Soundman2020 »

Are there other designs that are more compact and still effective? What about flatter, smaller baffle boxes?
Yes, there are other designs, and yes they can be flatter. The key point is to ensure that the cross sectional area inside the box is larger than the cross sectional area of the duct that feeds it (ideally about twice as much), but apart from that it doesn't really matter how you get to that cross section. It could be square, or it could be a tall thin section, or it could be a short fat section. Here are several examples of what people have done here on the forum:

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 9&start=74
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 25&start=2
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 42&start=5
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 61&start=0
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 5&start=98
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... &start=157
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... =2&t=13821
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 8&start=44

Do I need to build an access panel so I can get to the fan in case something with the fan malfunctions? Or would I just cut open the drywall in that case?
I would never put the fan inside the silencer box! The silencer is often built into the wall or ceiling cavity, and won't ever be available for access again (unless you want to knock holes in your studio wall! :shock: ). I put the fan outside of the studio, at the far end of the duct, as far away as possible form the room, and in an easily accessible location. The fan also has to be dimensioned correctly for the air flow that you need for your room, based on the calculations that you do.
5. How will I "balance" the airflow between the two vents/fans? I know absolutely nothing about HVAC.
You use variable (adjustable) dampers in-line with the duct, also in accessible locations. The simplest system has only one fan and one damper, even though there are two ducts. So for example, you would have a plain inlet duct with nothing in it (except duct liner, of course) running to the inlet silencer boxes, then the outlet duct (after the outlet silencer boxes) would have the damper in-line, and the fan on the far end. You then open and close the damper to get the correct flow rate. Since the room itself is sealed totally air-tight, the fan sucking air out through the outlet duct will cause fresh air to be sucked in to the room through the inlet duct. In fact, if you have a good variable-speed fan, you might not even need the damper.

In more complex systems for multiple rooms, there can be several fans and several dampers, and the dampers can even be electrically controlled by a system controller or thermostat. But you probably don't need something that sophisticated.
6. Can I make up for a smaller footprint by using denser insulation? If I use mineral wool instead of r13 will that help?
The air does not flow through the insulation at any point, and both the silencer boxes and the ducts must be lined with proper duct liner, never with ordinary fiberglass or mineral wool insulation. Duct liner has a special outer layer or coating that prevents air erosion.

- Stuart -
missmoo
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Re: Rooster studio - new space in existing basement

Post by missmoo »

I would never put the fan inside the silencer box!
Hmmm. Should I avoid Ted White's dead vent design because it has the fan inside the silencer box (http://www.soundproofingcompany.com/upl ... rofile.jpg)? I think he says you can just pop off the front facing pieces of drywall if you ever need to maintain the fan.
The key point is to ensure that the cross sectional area inside the box is larger than the cross sectional area of the duct that feeds it
I'm confused. The duct in Ted White's design is within the silencer box, right? So in that design, the silencer box doesn't feed the duct, right?

Also, when you say "cross sectional area", do you mean the surface area? If I want to come up with appropriate dimensions and still use Ted White's concept, should I measure the surface area of the inside of the rectangular silencer box and make sure it's at least twice as large as the surface area of the full length of 6" round flex duct?

I've been planning to use this "dead vent" design because my room is already constructed and the walls and ceiling are closed. There aren't any ducts in my walls or ceiling yet, and I was just planning to cut the 6" hole for the PVC pipe supply of fresh air, and another 6" hole for the exhaust. What I like about this dead vent design is that the whole mechanism seems to be outside of my room. If I can stick with this concept it would be great (it seems simple enough), but I'm unsure if I can get away with using different dimensions.

How would I calculate the cross sectional area in Ted White's dead vent design?

duct:
3.14 (pi) X 3" (radius) ^ 2 = 28.26

How about for the silencer box?

I apologize if I'm thinking about this all wrong. I feel like I'm missing something important and probably something obvious.

Thanks again
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Re: Rooster studio - new space in existing basement

Post by Soundman2020 »

Hmmm. Should I avoid Ted White's dead vent design because it has the fan inside the silencer box
I may be wrong, but I think his entire point with that design is for situations where the fan needs to be silenced, as it has to go inside the structure, and there are no alternatives. I wouldn't suggest that as the design for a silencer box where the fan can be located remotely, outside the studio.
I'm confused. The duct in Ted White's design is within the silencer box, right? So in that design, the silencer box doesn't feed the duct, right?
The way I see it, he is just putting the entire fan inside a box to silence it, while also curving the air path slightly to provide some additional isolation. That's fine, for the purpose it is designed for, but as you can see in the links I posted for you, that's not the way silencer boxes are normally built. Ted's design seems to be specific for the situation where you have no choice but to put the fan inside the studio. You don't seem to have that problem, so you don't need that solution!
Also, when you say "cross sectional area", do you mean the surface area?
The cross sectional area is just taking a cut across the duct itself, and seeing how much "empty space" there is for air to move through. For a round duct, the equation is Pi x r^2. So multiply the radius by the radius, and then by 3.141. So a 6" round duct has a cross sectional area of about 28 square inches (the radius of a 6" circle is 3": 3 x 3 x 3.141 = 28.26). The area of an 8" duct is about 50 square inches. And for rectangular ducts, it is simply the internal height x the internal width. So for a 10" x 12" duct, the cross sectional area is 120 square inches.

The general rule of thumb is that the cross section of the air path inside your silencer box should be at least twice as much as the cross section of the duct that supplies it with air. So if you have a 6" duct coming in, then the air path inside the silencer needs to be at least 56". In other words, the open space between the tip of each baffle and the silencer wall needs to measure about 7" x 8" or greater. The reason for this is very simple: if you give the air twice as much cross section to move through, then it must slow down to half the speed. That also creates an "impedance mismatch", which greatly reduces the level of sounds traveling through the duct.
If I want to come up with appropriate dimensions and still use Ted White's concept, should I measure the surface area of the inside of the rectangular silencer box and make sure it's at least twice as large as the surface area of the full length of 6" round flex duct?
You cannot use this concept at all with that design, since the air is not moving through the box! It is inside the duct, and since the duct is always the same size, there is no change in cross section, and no change in air flow speed, and no change in impedance. Ted's design is to stop the FAN NOISE getting into the studio, not to act as a true silencer box for the air-borne noise itself.
I've been planning to use this "dead vent" design because my room is already constructed and the walls and ceiling are closed.
I don't understand why you are so insistent on using that dead vent when it is not applicable to your situation! You need a true silencer box, which can actually be smaller than the "dead vent", if that's what you need, since you can make it flatter than the duct could ever be, provided that you also make it wider. With a true silencer box, you can adjust all the dimensions as needed to get the best fit, without being restricted to the size of the fan motor or the duct. Just use an outdoor fan unit at the far end of the duct, and size the silencer box as small as you need to make it.
There aren't any ducts in my walls or ceiling yet, and I was just planning to cut the 6" hole for the PVC pipe supply of fresh air, and another 6" hole for the exhaust.
PVC pipe??? :shock: That's not the right way to make ducts! Use only proper HVAC duct. Either "flex duct" or normal round sheet metal duct. Don't substitute for products that are not meant to do the job. That is not PVC pipe in Ted's design either: it is flex duct, which is correct.
What I like about this dead vent design is that the whole mechanism seems to be outside of my room.
so it is no different than the normal way of doing a silencer box! In what way do you see it as being different?
If I can stick with this concept it would be great (it seems simple enough), but I'm unsure if I can get away with using different dimensions.
If you insist on following that design, then you are stuck with those dimensions. The limiting factor is the size of the fan motor itself: you cannot make the box any narrower than that, in either dimension (but you could with a normal silencer). And you cannot make the ducts shorter, since you need at least that length to smooth out the turbulence (and resulting high air noise levels) created by the fan itself. The genreal rule is 6 rimes the duct diameter in both directions, so 36 inches up and another 36 inches down (72 inches) plus the fan length (6"?) plus the ducts themselves (8"), plus a few inches clearance top and bottom. Hence, 90". So if you have your heart set on that design, then you have no choice but to follow the dimensions exactly.
How would I calculate the cross sectional area in Ted White's dead vent design?
You don't, because it is fixed. There's no need to calculate anything, since the air never leaves the flex duct, and never enters the box itself. The box is only there to silence the FAN, not the AIRFLOW, since the air never flows through the box, outside of the duct. The box has to be dimensioned at least that big, since tie OD of 6" flex duct is more like 8", plus the radius of the curves: you cannot bend flex duct in a tight corner: it has to be curved gently, hence the need for a box 24" deep, and also wide enough to accommodate the fan (12"?).

So with that design, you have no choice but to use the same dimensions that Ted gives. The only way you can use a smaller box, is if you do a normal baffled silencer box, such as the ones I linked you to in my last post, without the fan inside it. Just put the fan at the far end of the exhaust duct, wherever that is, hopefully a long way from the studio.

- Stuart -
missmoo
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Re: Rooster studio - new space in existing basement

Post by missmoo »

Ok, so it seems like the dead vent design is overkill based on everything you are saying. That's great because a smaller design will be significantly better for my situation!!

I still have some questions and I"m hoping you can validate some of my assumptions.

I attached an image of the exhaust system I'm thinking about to pull stale air out of the room. It's crude, but I'm hoping it makes enough sense to get your high level feedback.

1. Since my walls, ceiling, and all drywall is already fully constructed, I would like to put the silencer boxes entirely OUTSIDE of the soundproof space, butting up against the outside of the outer leaf in an unfinished adjacent basement room. This seems to be in contrast to most of the designs you sent links for, most of which seem to have the silencer box integrated into the leaf system (either in between the leaves or somewhat integrated into the inner leaf). Can this type of silencer box work completely outside of the room, outside of the outer leaf?

2. In order to have the silencer box outside of the room, and based on other designs I've seen, I would need to cut a hole directly through the inner AND outer leaf drywall. This would have to be a straight duct that runs from the inside of the room, through the 2 layers of drywall, through the 1 inch airgap, and then through the second 2 layers of drywall (the duct would terminate outside of the room into a silencer box). In running a duct directly through the inner and outer leaf, it seems like I'll be compromising my soundproofing in a significant way (and in a way that I need to deal with).

I've tried to capture this duct in blue in the attached image (very rough image, not to scale).

3. In order to mitigate the issue I create by running a duct directly through my inner and outer leaf (the blue duct in my attached sketch), I need that duct to have mass.

In Ted White's design, he says that that specific duct penetrating both leaves (I've outlined it in blue on Ted's drawing below) and leading to the silencer box could be thick PVC lined with pipe wrap or MLV. In other designs I've seen, it could be a 6" round duct or a square/rectangular duct lined with duct liner or other HVAC soundproofing material.

I am only referring to Ted's design here because it's one example of how to deal with soundproofing the round duct that penetrates directly through both leaves. His use of PVC and pipe wrap is his way of reducing the amount of sound that escapes the duct between the leaves, prior to his "silencer box". I would be happy to use another product, if not PVC, I just haven't seen an example of this in other designs that I understand. It seems like some other people just run a plain metal duct directly through the walls.... which seems like it would prone to have sound go through the thin metal duct and in between the leaves.

- What materials and installation technique should I use to run the duct directly through the inner and outer leaf?
- How do I avoid the sound escaping the duct between the two leaves and severely compromising the leaf system?
- How do I avoid creating a rigid bridge between the two leaves? Should I suspend the duct on neoprene where it goes through the drywall so it's less rigidly connected to the leaves?

4. The duct will go through the leaves and terminate in a silencer/baffle box, which will on it's own have mass and airtightness so it will somewhat function like part of the outer leaf. Like the designs you pointed out to me (thank you!), I'll line that silencer box with duct liner and make it's outer shell massive and airtight.

5. That small silencer box should effectively stop large amounts of sound from escaping the music room, even though the box itself contains very little insulation and their are gaping holes on both ends. The baffles, complex path and impedance mismatch are what will reduce the sound transmission from one side of the box to the other.

6. Since the entire silencer box is outside of the room, I was thinking I could put the fan directly at the end of the silencer box (rather than hooking the end of the silencer box up to another duct with a fan at the end of that).

I've included a fan in the sketch that's sitting at the far end opening of the silencer box.

- Will it work if I put the fan all the way at the end of the silencer box that is in the unfinished basement area?
- Will the fan noise be audible in the room if it's that close to the room itself (even though it's outside of the room)?
- If this won't work, how long of a duct should I run to get the fan far enough away so it won't be heard in the space?

7. If this design is actually ok, I was thinking I could essentially create another other of these ducts/boxes for the fresh air supply, but instead just reverse the direction of the fan at the end of the silencer box to push fresh air through the silencer box and into the room. Would that concept work?

Thanks!
Adam
missmoo
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Re: Rooster studio - new space in existing basement

Post by missmoo »

I hope my post above makes sense. I'm trying my best :D . I just want to :shot:
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