Basement Two Room Studio

[PhiloBeddoe]

Steve,

Thanks for the reply.

My plan was to not use RC in the live room because it has floating walls and ceiling. However, the control room has all the top plates nailed directly to the existing ceiling joists that support the first floor of the house. One of the control room top plates connects to a steel beam, which rings if you pound on the framing under it because they are directly connected. The new drywall will be mounted to the existing ceiling joists in the control room.

I would LOVE to not use RC in the control room if possible. However, I thought it was necessary since the framing is not floating in this room. Please let me know if you think otherwise. I have a drywall contractor coming on Monday to bid on it, so it would be nice to know about the RC by then. I'm still contemplating doing the drywall myself because I'm not sure I can be confident it will be done correctly. Not having RC would simplify things. Maybe RC on ceiling only?

I see your point about the work boxes, that's a good idea. I found out yesterday that SPI (the often cited distributer of OC 703) also sells putty packs for $3.00 each so I'll be sure to pick some up.

Thanks again,
Marc

[knightfly]

With any walls where the frame is hard connected to structure, you'll need resilient mounts. For the wall with the steel beam, maybe even RSIC clips and hat channel; you get a slightly deeper cavity, harder to mess it up (but not impossible) - for these walls a complete, snug fill with unfaced standard density fiberglass batts would probably work as good as anything - although using the higher density safe n sound (2.5 PCF) may give better damping of studs and drywall, and won't HURT anything - I'd probably go that way for the chance of killing more of the ringing.

Speaking of which, if you have some fairly heavy rubber (like 1/4" strips) you might try contact cementing some strips to that steel beam's vertical web, and re-testing for the ring - at the least, it should be insulated for better damping.

Ceiling - again, if these are common joists you'll need resilient mounts... Steve

[PhiloBeddoe]

Steve,

Thanks for the reply. OK, I'm going ahead with the resilient mounting of the drywall. Unfortunately, yet another drywall guy came to bid and said "you mean hat channel?" when I told him about resilient channel. I have the sinking feeling that I'm going to have to do this myself and I have no drywall experience. Thanks to the great info on this site, I think I at least have a basic idea of what to do. I'm thinking about hanging it and hiring someone to apply the final finish coat.

I don't think the beam ringing warrants too much special treatment as it's pretty faint, I was just trying to make a point about the existing structure being tied into. I'm using the Roxul AFB (3pcf) everywhere though.

FYE, I just finished pulling stage type snakes (box on one end fan out on other, 12 XLR, 4 send) through runs of ~30 feet of 3" PVC with 270 degree+ worth of bends. Even with bunches of wire pulling lubricant and preparation, this was a nightmare. I had to cut one of the pipes to unstick one of the snakes. I think if I had to do it again I'd go through the trouble of soldering or ditch the idea of running them in pipes. My concept was to run them in pipes so they could one day be pulled out, but they're stuck in there now. 3" was the largest I could work with because anything larger and it wouldn't fit in a stud cavity. Thankfully a friend warned me that I should pull the cables before the drywall went up. I was reluctant to do it, but man I'm glad I did.



Marc

[knightfly]

Print out this page

http://www.dietrichindustries.com/bigdp ... sories.htm

and show it to ANY drywall guy you use; make sure he understands that this stuff is supposed to be a SPRING - you want either RC Deluxe, or RC-2 Double leg RESILIENT channel.

Your guy very likely was asking about what Dietrich calls FURRING channel, shown lower on that page.

Do NOT, repeat NOT, let ANYONE tell you this is OK.

Point out on the pic of RC-2, that those funny looking marks on the SIDES of the channel are SLOTS, put there to PURPOSELY WEAKEN the sidewall; this is where the RESILIENCE comes from, and is VITAL.

(BTW, the "yelling" was for the benefit of whoever you show this to, not you - )

Personally, I think Dietrich is too conservative in their recommendations to use the RC-2 - I've seen no problems using the RC Deluxe, even on ceilings, with 2 layers of 5/8. The RC-2 is a bit stiffer, and is 'WAY TOO EASILY CONFUSED with HAT channel by tradesmen.

More things to print for your drywall guy -

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ght=#22169

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=20003

If you decide to have this done, don't walk away and let your crafts people make ANY decisions without you; if you stay there, you will know how they did it and learn some of their methods; and more importantly, THEY won't be as likely to "slip something by you" that will hurt your isolation, just because "that's the way it's done" - education is your friend here, both for YOU and for your BUILDER.

HTH... Steve

[PhiloBeddoe]

Funny, that's exactly what I gave him - the Dietrich catalog page. I circled the RC deluxe and explained to him about the slots in the RC-2.

I got this guy's name from a large drywall supply place that carries the Dietrich RC. I asked the person if he knew anyone who knew how to use the RC and he sent me to this guy, who of course had no clue.

I've read the horror story about the guy using the hat channel instead of RC, so I think I'll know the right thing when I see it.

Thanks again and I'll keep everyone updated.

[knightfly]

Yeah, if ya can't grate cheese on the sloped part it ain't gonna cut it

[PhiloBeddoe]

Just a minor update:

I'm working on documentation - pictures and basic sketches of all the framing, conduit routing, pvc routing, etc. for reference. Probably pretty worthless, but now is the only opportunity before everything is covered with insulation.

I had yet another "expert" drywall person look at the place. This was supposedly someone with lots of experience with resilient channel in commercial construction and it took some coaxing to even look at the job because he's a union contractor and self-admittedly expensive. He told me that in his opinion RC was worthless for soundproofing and that usually he put it on after the base layer of sheetrock (i.e. between the two layers). When I showed him the USG SA200 diagrams about avoiding short circuiting the RC and that in bold letters it says that it is not advised to put RC between sheetrock layers for soundproofing he shrugged it off by saying "well, if that's what you want I guess that's fine". There were also some other condescending suggestions along the way that can really hurt after putting in this much research.

I don't want to stereotype or discount the skills of a person like this, I just want to provide a warning to those reading that this is not a typical application so there will be a lot of skepticism on the part of contractors. Actually, if anyone is to blame it's the architects that do things like specify putting the RC between the layers. I've seen this very clearly shown on drawings, so why should a contractor think it's not effective if the architect specifies it?

[sharward]

. . . I just want to provide a warning to those reading that this is not a typical application so there will be a lot of skepticism on the part of contractors. . .

I would say unbelievable, but the truth of the matter is, it's quite believable.

Believe it or not, a senior inspector at my city building department actually told me that double framing was unnecessary, and that instead I should mount my layers of sheet rock against my existing studs with a combination of hat channel and RC between each layer! And he's supposedly an "expert" at this stuff because he oversaw the construction of a professional recording studio in midtown last year. Thank goodness I was able to distinguish his "advice" from his "directives" to follow code.

I wonder what percentage of "soundproof rooms" are actually constructed with sound techniques (no pun intended)...

[knightfly]

In all fairness to contractors, this is a VERY confusing issue; even the USG manual recommends gypsum/RC/Gypsum in at least one place - it's on page 119 of the USG manual. however, once you wade through their obscure crap you find some fine print that says this is "not recommended for a sound rated wall", or something similar. I just looked for the "disclaimer" but couldn't find it. The offending text doesn't say much about that. And NO, before you even ask, NO ONE HERE should build their walls or ceilings that way...

This complete lack of understanding by building trades of the physics involved in sound isolation is why you will almost NEVER hear me recommend using GC's, or even individual tradesmen, for this kind of construction. I honestly have yet to hear ONE SINGLE NORMAL BUILDER tell me anything to indicate they have the teeeeeensiest little clue about this.

Therefore, my only defense is to recommend to anyone wanting someone ELSE to build their studio to either pay a LOT for a KNOWLEDGEABLE builder (very hard to find) or at least, hire a builder who isn't so egotistical that they won't listen and follow directions. I don't care if they've been doing it that way for two CENTURIES; it's still WRONG for YOUR application. Remember that.

This still means that YOU, the OWNER, must take it on yourself to learn the how's and why's (right here in river city ) and make adequate detail drawings and STICK TO YOUR GUNS about EXACTLY how each phase of construction is to be done -

Make it clear to your builder that it either gets done YOUR way or it gets REMOVED and done AGAIN, with NO INCREASE in cost to you. Get this in WRITING, or blow him off.

There is no room here for being a "nice guy" - you are paying for a SPECIFIC job to be done to YOUR specifications, therefore that is what you are entitled to. Nice guys get crapped upon and ticketed for excessive noise.

I hope I'm not sounding like a ranting idiot here, but this is CRUCIAL. I don't know how else to put it. "Sorta right" is NOT right AT ALL.

Keith, you CAN build a soundproof room the DUMB way; it just takes 3 times as much material for 2/3 as much isolation, but it sure SOUNDS impressive to someone who doesn't understand, when you tell them "I put 2 layers of MDF, 6" of fiberglass insulation, 2 layers of drywall, a double layer of criss-crossed 2x6's laid flat and laminated with shoe goop, then 12" of mason's sand in a cavity with interspersed small river rocks to deflect the low frequencies, then 4" of "sound board" alternately glued and screwed, and finally extra heavy vinyl shower pan liner caulked to 90 pound roll roofing, with 2" EPS foam block suspended in front of, but not touching, the inner wall; man, you can hear a PIN drop in there... (and it only cost $450 per lineal foot to build each wall...)

Hope this helps... Steve

[PhiloBeddoe]

Steve & Keith,

Thanks for sympathizing. I guess I was just surprised that it sounded like the RC between drywall layers was commonly done. I realize that my options are to do it myself or write very careful instructions/specifications. I can probably afford to hire this out, but if I end up supervising the whole job I'll wonder why I didn't do it myself.

The arrogant guy is asking 30% more than the other guys so it will be pleasant to tell him to go scratch.

Again, I don't mean to discount the skills of these guys but often they pretend to know more than they do, possibly due to the inextricable link between tools and machismo. I just feel sorry for those that trust them too much. Unfortunately, the burden is mostly on us to be our own architects/engineers if not also constructors.

I'd have to say that the idea of never hiring any tradesman is a little extreme. Most recording engineers/musicians are not qualified carpenters/plumbers/electricians/sheetrockers/concrete finishers and whatever else. As Steve said, the decision to hire help has a great deal to do with how open they are to suggestions. I hired a carpenter to frame the place and he was finished in 3 days and did exactly what I asked him to with no complaining. I don't regret that one bit as it would have taken me months because I am slow and just don't have the free time.

I can't imagine pulling this off without this forum. I read some of the F.Alton Everest book about building a recording studio on a budget and I remember thinking "who's budget, Bill Gates'?". I was just really intimidated. It takes a ridiculous amount of research, but this forum proves that it can be done and regardless of how my place turns out, I've learned a ton about soundproofing.

The reference is on page 92 of the construction manual under "Resilient Channel Ceilings", where it describes putting RC over the base layer followed by "not recommended when sound control is a major consideration."

I've got the putty packs installed, so now I'm off to do insulation....

Thanks again,
Marc

[knightfly]

I'd have to say that the idea of never hiring any tradesman is a little extreme. Most recording engineers/musicians are not qualified carpenters/plumbers/electricians/sheetrockers/concrete finishers and whatever else.

This is the crux of the conundrum, IMO - I think it all comes back to the "good/fast/cheap" triangle, where you can pick ANY TWO but can never get ALL THREE.

If you have the money, you simply hire an outfit like RBDG or WSDG and tell them you want a studio "over there", and to "call me when it's ready" - this will get you "good" and "fast", but will NOT be "cheap" -

If you do NOT have that much money, then you will have to forego "fast" but may still be able to pull off "good" and "cheap" (well, less expensive anyway)

IF your budget is even tighter, then "fast" becomes even further from reality, "cheap" also lengthens the time span (saving up for 4 more sheets of wallboard ) -

If you want the least expensive GOOD space, then hiring contractors/tradesmen needs to get replaced with EDUCATION and DIY.

Even if you only want SORTA cheaper GOOD space, you STILL need the EDUCATION, because I flat GUARANTEE that the contractor you can AFFORD has NO CLUE. NADA. ZIP. (The one exception I know of, and I'm not sure about cost, is Frank from Colorado, he's a member here and at some other boards. I'd hire him in a heartbeat if I had the option. I'm not even sure if he's still in biz or not... )

Now, as much as it may SOUND like I'm putting all the contractors in the universe DOWN, I'm actually NOT - this type construction is only recently more than a VERY SMALL NICHE, and no one has NEEDED to know how it can be done most efficiently.

No contractor who has any business sense at all will spend much time on things that don't show a profit; there simply isn't enough time for that and running multiple crews, deciding whether to fire a framer because he's an asshole or keep him because he can frame a house 25% faster than the NICE guy, whether to rent or buy that Bobcat and who to allow to run it, etc -

So, we (as musicians/engineers with less-than-stellar budgets) are given a choice;

We can rely on others to know how to do things right, which will cost more;

We can learn it ourselves and watch closely to make sure a GC does it OUR way, or

We can learn it ourselves EVEN MORE and DIY -

The only other option I see is spending your money on a disappointing piece of crap that will waste your time, money, and emotional well-being; I wouldn't wish that on ANYBODY, which is most of why I contribute over a thousand hours a year to this site.

Hope this clarifies my previous comments; and Marc, thanks for that page reference; not sure why I had such a hard time finding it... Steve

[PhiloBeddoe]

I have a silly insulation question.

In the USG Construction Manual it says to score the thermafiber down the middle before installation so it pushes itself outward and damps the panels.

I've been doing this and it does indeed seem to bow out in the middle, but in looking around at others' construction pics I haven't noticed anyone else doing this. One person recommended pushing the insulation further in for an RC installation so that the RC was allowed to fully flex unhindered by insulation.

What do you think of this slicing insulation in the middle practice?

Thanks,
Marc

[knightfly]

If you're using the higher density batts in walls, this is a good way to get some damping of the panels.

In a wall that's using RC, if using the higher density batts there also then I'd get some un-faced standard fiberglass batts (R11), and use narrow (2-3") strips of the softer insulation between (and parallel to) RC's, specifically for panel damping. This will help the TL of such a wall by several dB at panel resonance... Steve

[PhiloBeddoe]

Just some updates:

I finally found a drywall contractor that knew how to install RC and caulk according to the USG guidelines. It was the first time I had someone tell me how to do it. And....he is the cheapest by far and is now finishing the final mudding. I saved some additional $$$ by supplying all the materials and carrying all 100 sheets down to the basement (ouch). Actually, I was pleased to supply the materials myself so I could be sure I was getting the right stuff, particularly the caulk and RC. I used OSI SC-175 sound caulk and Dietrich RC deluxe.

I'll have some drywall pics when the finishing is done, but for now here's some earlier pics. I have many other pictures so please let me know if there's something anyone's interested in seeing. I probably made some mistakes and definitely made some compromises.

First pic is some bags of Roxul 3"x16"x48" insulation for no good reason.

Second pic is Dietrich RC Deluxe. I special ordered it from Menards. Took about 1.5 weeks to get.

Third pic is of an installed putty pack viewed from the rear of a conduit box. I paid $3.00 each for the putty packs at SPI, the same national chain that sells OC 703.

[PhiloBeddoe]

More pics, this time with insulation.

First pic - Northeast corner of control room. PVC pipes include snakes running to other room. I used fluffy fiberglass where the Roxul was too thick.

Second pic - Northeast corner of control room including closet. The closet provided a convenient place to bring in the pvc pipes and cables.

Third pic - Looking through doorway into live room.

The rooms were so dead at that point that it actually hurt my ears.