John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

Great forum John! I’ve read your posts on several boards now, and I’m quite impressed. I’m hoping you and others here can help me with my control room acoustics. Sorry if this is long, but I figure the more info I provide up front the fewer questions you’ll have.

A couple of years ago I leased a space next to the main video post facility in San Diego, which unfortunately is about 50 feet from the second busiest single-track rail line in the U.S. (East of our building). The I-5 freeway is the same distance to the West. I didn’t build the space, and the guy who did seems to have been a novice at best. He didn’t even put insulation in the walls (we cut holes and blew some in), and the main control room has parallel walls except for some weird angles and door placement that have always been problematic.

I started out facing north like the previous occupants (see the old pictures on my site), then turned west for more symmetry, and now I’m facing east to be closer to the machine room, and so that ad agency clients can see the talent easier. However, the lack of symmetry in this spot is driving me crazy, and some notes (116-130Hz) are so out of phase between the two speakers (Genelec 1032A’s on stands) that the notes almost totally cancel (compared to each monitor alone). I have several 8’x4’ panels of 703 free standing by the walls, and I know I need more bass trapping, but I think I need to fix the symmetry problem first.

I came up with a couple of designs that involve tearing it all down and starting over, but I have a hard time justifying the cost and downtime with the current economic climate – and since any soundproofing improvements would be expensive so close to the train. Also, the position of the bathroom and kitchen make it very difficult to expand the control room west. So I’ve come up with a couple of ideas that involve minimal construction (moving a couple of doors and filling in the gaps) but wanted to make sure I’m not missing obvious problems or alternatives. BTW, since this is a post facility, I need a TV monitor and center speaker in front of me above the computer monitors, and I need to have the ability to add surround speakers at 110 degrees (although I guess more people are starting to put them 125 degrees off axis). Also, I’m not totally against soffits, but I’m not sure I’m capable of building them correctly, and I might trade the Genelecs for Adams eventually depending on how they sound when I’m done with acoustic treatments. That said, I’d be interested in soffit mounting eventually, but for now would probably put bass traps in the corners behind the monitors.

DDStudio1.gif shows the whole space, DDStudio2a.gif shows my current setup. DDStudio2b.gif is my first idea, which is to turn south and move the door to the west wall. The pros – it’s more symmetrical and I can get to the machine room again. Cons - there’s only two feet of space between the wall and the oh-so-popular 8 ft. purple couch. Also, my clients won’t be able to see the talent (the bottom of the window is 4 feet high). I’m kind of resigned to that, although they already think I’m crazy for moving my room around so much. DDStudio2c is my latest idea, which is the same except that I’d move the door to the wall between the hall and the machine room, and move the booth door out of my room and into the machine room also, making the entrance to the booth and the control room in the machine room. Pros – the two foot space between the couch and the wall doesn’t matter, isolation between the control room and booth would improve (which matters when my partner’s using the booth with his control room), and I could use all of the evil 10’x5’ alcove for hanger-style bass trapping. Cons – any time clients are there, the machine room door would be open, creating more computer noise, cabling issues, etc. I’m starting to think that would be worth it to get rid of the accursed alcove.

Finally, just to confuse things more, my ceiling is an 8’ drop ceiling with 6” fiberglass on top, and for the 10’ width of the alcove there’s a real ceiling (bottom of the second story which is only in the front half of the building), but the eastern three feet above the drop ceiling is open to the top of the building, which seems to be at least 25-30 feet high (see DDStudio2d.gif). This is good because some of the bass must be escaping, but the train noise comes through the rollup door in the back, over the other rooms and through this gap. Luckily, this isolation problem doesn’t really affect mixing, but hangers in the ceiling would have to address this issue.

So what do you think? Am I crazy, or will this work. Anything I’m missing? I have other questions about bass trap specifics that I’ll save for later. Guess I'll add the other gifs as separate posts.

Thanks,

J.J.

J.J. McLeod
Different Drummer Studios
www.differentdrummerstudios.com

How it is now...

Plan1

Plan 2

And finally the ceiling configuration...

Thanks again,

J.J.

J.J. McLeod
Different Drummer Studios
www.differentdrummerstudios.com

Couple of questions JJ

Do you use the booth or the machine room for V/O - you said the client needs to see the machine room??

Do you use the Live studio?? there appears to be no window fro communication to that room.

I suppose you need acces to the kitchen??
I assume the studio photo at your site is a pic taken from the south wall looking north with the window being the one into the booth??


cheers
john

Do you use the booth or the machine room for V/O - you said the client needs to see the machine room??[/quote]

If I said that I was mistaken. I meant the "talent" in the booth.

[/quote]Do you use the Live studio?? there appears to be no window fro communication to that room.

I haven't used it at all, personally. It started off as a lounge (with the pool table on the home page) and has evolved into a pretty good live room. My partner tends to record most of the drums, etc., but his room isn't adjacent to the live room anyway. I'm not as big a fan of windows as you seem to be - especially for mixing - so I'm fine with putting that off 'til later, but we do plan to seal off the live room from the freeway with a wall and a solid core door. Even so, you might be surprised by how little traffic you hear in the drum tracks, and despite my initial reservations, the drums sound damn good! Anyway, my focus is v.o., audio post and mixing music.

[quote]I suppose you need access to the kitchen??

Yes, but no more than I need access to the front door and the bathroom. As long as there's a door out of the control room area, that should be good enough.

[quote]I assume the studio photo at your site is a pic taken from the south wall looking north with the window being the one into the booth??

Correct. Old pictures re: my desk and speakers, but the space is the same. The wall I'm thinking of facing is the one behind the couch on the site. You can just barely see the existing doorjam in that picture.

Thanks. It's exciting to have input from the master!

J.J.

J.J. McLeod
Different Drummer Studios
www.differentdrummerstudios.com

How about something like this??

cheers
john

I thought of that, but I was worried that the wall behind the monitors would be too short at 7', and the monitors would be in the corners, which I thought was undesirable. One advantage of facing south was freeing up both corners behind the monitors for bass trapping if I was using stands. In your design it appears that there's only trapping on the left side, which might not provide the symmetry I'm looking for at the mix position.

How would your design work if I decided to soffit mount later? Would there be room for that? Also, since you added doors at the north end, there wouldn't be hangers in the former alcove, correct? I assume that was left over from my drawing.

Thanks,

J.J.

J.J. McLeod
Different Drummer Studios
www.differentdrummerstudios.com

you couldn't soffit mount in this layout and yes those bass traps were left over from your drawing.

cheers
john

Thanks John. I'm thinking that the quality of the mixing environment is more important than my clients seeing the talent while sitting on the couch, especially since they can see the booth if they're next to me in a chair. So using mixing/acoustics as the main criteria, is facing south the best way? And would this make soffit mounting easier now or in the future? For me, symmetry and bass trapping (relatively equal RT60 across the frequency spectrum) is the key.

Thanks again,

J.J.

J.J. McLeod
Different Drummer Studios
www.differentdrummerstudios.com

Yes JJ - if you want to soffit mount and don't mind notseeing directly into the booth then south is the way to. Don't forget the door! it would be better on the west wall or through the rear of the control room.

cheers
john

Great, John, thanks! Good to know I'm not completely crazy.

I have some specific questions about bass traps, etc. that I'll probably post in the construction section. But while we're talking about free-standing monitors near corners, I'm wondering what bass traps are best in the corners behind monitors on stands. I've seen you recommend slot absorbers, but are there situations where the low bass extension of hangers/panel traps might be better - especially since the corners have so much low bass? Also, without soffit mounting, it seems that it would be better to have a non-reflective surface so close to the monitors.

I plan on making traps appox. 2'-3' on each side for the corners. Is that big enough for hangers? Could I make them portable as long as they're airtight?

So many questions...

Thanks so much for your help,

J.J.

J.J. McLeod
Different Drummer Studios
www.differentdrummerstudios.com

In addition to my questions about bass traps behind speakers on stands, I have a new and bigger problem re: turning my control room orientation to the south.

Yesterday I turned most of my stuff (including the big couch) in that direction and put the Genelecs where I think they would be - about 6' apart, close to the south wall, equidistant from the "new" side walls @ 3' each. I didn't move my desk, but it's quite small with only two 17" monitors for Pro Tools. I put a panel of 703 between the "east" monitor and the south door, but otherwise the sound treatment was the same as my current position.

What concerns me is that the two monitors were nowhere close to symmetrical in bass response. In fact, the peaks and dips were almost opposite of each other above 80hz. The range between 80-140 hz was 10-15db louder on the monitor on the east wall! (In other words, the western one had more cancellation and dips in this region). And both monitors together were much worse than my current position in the 200-300 range, adding a lot more mud than I hear currently (the current ringing in this range is the whole reason I started down this path). BTW, I switched the monitors with the same results, so it's definitely the room.

I assume that this 200-300 range needs absorption for more even response throughout the room. What concerns me is the lack of symmetry, since this is the whole reason I'm thinking about moving doors and filling in walls. So I have a couple of theories about the assymetry of bass response on the south wall. Which do you think is likely to be the _main_ cause of this problem?

1) The door is still in the south wall behind the east monitor. Also there's a sliding door on the east wall into the machine room. I'm sure this is having an effect, but is it the main one?

2) The room is shorter on the eastern side because the booth sticks out into the control room.

3) The eastern 3' of the control room is under a much taller actual ceiling (above the drop ceiling). See the last pic in my first post above. The "real" ceiling is at least 10' higher on the eastern side than the western one.

If #3 is the main problem, then I'd have to close the eastern gap above the drop ceiling, which would be more expensive, could remove a possible current outlet for excess bass, etc. If #2 is the problem, even the additional ceiling construction wouldn't solve it.

So what do you think? Is it going to take more construction than I previously thought to make the room symmetrical in the bass region, or will moving the south door and filling the wall fix most of it? Does a drop ceiling with 6" of loose insulation on top still let most of the bass out into the cavity above, and can two monitors 6' apart have wildly different bass response because of it?

Thanks again!

J.J.

J.J. McLeod
Different Drummer Studios
www.differentdrummerstudios.com

1) The door is still in the south wall behind the east monitor. Also there's a sliding door on the east wall into the machine room. I'm sure this is having an effect, but is it the main one?

2) The room is shorter on the eastern side because the booth sticks out into the control room.

3) The eastern 3' of the control room is under a much taller actual ceiling (above the drop ceiling). See the last pic in my first post above. The "real" ceiling is at least 10' higher on the eastern side than the western one.

If #3 is the main problem, then I'd have to close the eastern gap above the drop ceiling, which would be more expensive, could remove a possible current outlet for excess bass, etc. If #2 is the problem, even the additional ceiling construction wouldn't solve it.

I'd suspect both doors are causing the problem. They are basically panel absorbers with no absorption:)
How thick is the glass in the sliding door??

2) shouldn't be a problem

I don't believe the extra ceiling height should effect the low end as much as you say it varies. I suspect both doors.

But if there is that much variation why not stay where you are?? at least you can see into the booth:)

You coiuld build a reciprocal wall on your right to match the booth window wall and build another wall across the north end to create symmetry.

I really think you are in need of more acoustic treatment generally.

cheers
john