John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

Hello.
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Was wondering what people were using for the spring for floating floor.
I see in some of the users examples that some people were using U-Boat Floor Floaters, however, I read on one of the threads that one of the senior members hates the U-Boats.
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The floating floor that I am building will not be that big and will only have one or two people at a time and does not have to support that much weight.
Inner room 2m x 2m-ish. Supporting the weight of the inner room walls and ceiling, and the contents of the room. The walls are likely to be made from 6" deep spray cellulose fibre (not sure how much this weighs). And the ceiling will probably be made of a similar spec.
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The room will probably never have more than two people inside it at a time, and probably only one guitar amp/stack max.
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I was wondering if a thick neoprene mat covering the entire area surface of the floating floor area would be better than U-Boat floor floaters in terms of resilient shock absorpsion for building transmitted sound.
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Anyway, any help appreciated.
Thanks
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This might help:

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... f=2&t=8173

pootle roche wrote:Was wondering what people were using for the spring for floating floor.
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By and large...they use what is there. I know, I know, it's all over the world, get a spring and float a floor, get a check!

It isn't what we think it is.

It is a costly, unbelievably difficult situation as it pertains to labor.

The science is almost not effect, does not even matter.

What does matter is what it takes to get it done in a DIY environment.

It is just too outside of the average musicians ability...really, think about it.

And then add money to it.

Who has money?

Thanks for advise,
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Have decided to copy a simple non concrete floating floor that i have found in Philip Newell's book, that uses open cell foam for a spring plus /deadsheet/2 layers of drywall / 2 layers of chipboard. Thank God for Philip Newell and his book.
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This non concrete floating floor will be placed in a 1st story level apartment, on a timber floor that's cavity is filled with 10 inches of spray cellulose fiber and covered with a layer of soundbloc sheet or other mineral loaded vinyl before the original timbre floor boards are replaced on top.
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I think that this build should be simple enough for pretty much anybody with common sense and a little level of skill to do/ After all, its not rocket science at this level.
And as my father has worked for 45 years of his life in the flooring industry, I am sure that he should be able to handle it.
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I am also not just an "average musician".
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I am a musician/sound engineer/producer.
I have a BA degree in Sound Technology from one of the most prestigious colleges in the world.
Same college that is associated with many leading names in the music industry. such as Paul McCartney and George Martin.
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I have also worked in many manual jobs over the years, including a number of building jobs,
so am very confident that I will be able to achieve the desired objectives.
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I do not require to lay concrete, however, if I did, I would learn.
Most people who work as professional builders are less technically minded.
Especially, when the studio that they are building has already be designed for them and the scientific analysis for the design is already worked out before they start,
and although some of the science behind the design of floating floors is complex, i do not feel that it is outside of my capabilities.
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I am confident that I can achieve my objectives if I apply myself.
I am certainly capable of a little elementary carpentry and sound proofing.
Which, is exactly what is involved when designing and building a small studio that is to be built in a residential area.
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I also have a cousin who is a qualified architect and a friend who is a structural engineer.
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So, thanks for the advice telling me to give up and to get the "professionals" in.
However, I am not the type that gives up, especially on such a simple task (when compared to other objectives that I have achieved in my life). Besides, I am more likely to get a better finish if I do the work myself, as I am the quality control because it is my studio.
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I am not an "average" musician. My name is not nigel. I do not have a short long hair cut. I do not wear an old school rocker leather jacket with studs on. I do not wear rock and roll ripped jeans. And do not play a funny shaped "evil" guitar at the hard rock cafe. (nothing against you, if you do fit this description though).
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This is just a stereo type really.
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I am one of many of a new breed of independent producers that can do everything, as long as we put our minds to it.
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I may be dyslexic, however, so is Richard Branson and Noel Gallagher.
And so was Albert Einstien.

Sorry for being a bit aggressive, I just felt that some of the remarks were less than encouraging, and from what I can see, without reasonable reason.
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I will try and not post for a while.
Just trying to build a studio. Sorry, must have got confused regarding the purpose of this site.
Thought it was a place to help people learn and to give encouragement.
Cheers

for some one as qualified as you say you are you sure ask a lot of questions - or are you just here to flog Phillip Newells book?

nope. Don't know the guy.
However, I ask lots of questions as some area's were not covered by the stickies,
and I needed to know the answers to the questions.
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As for flogging Philip Newell's book. I only mention some of the things in the book, as these area's seem to be area's that are not covered by the people on this site.
Things such as the non environment rooms, which to me, look like a lot of sense, especially for people who are restricted with regards to space.
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Now, this is not me trying to get your backs up, as if you read most of my posts, I mention how good this site is and how kind many of the contributers have been, giving their advice for free and helping people by giving them good advice on designs / building problems, and how thankful I have been for the advise I have been given.
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Most people, with the exception of this guy xspace, have been very kind and very helpful.
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I am not experienced in studio design, however, I am in many area's that by nature are generally more taxing/complex than simple studio design. (not to be confused with complex studio design).
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Please note that,
I am not the instigator of this conflict, I am simply spending a great deal of time and effort doing a crash course in a relatively straight forward subject and asking questions on the way, in order to clarify the correct or best possible way to do things so that i can build the best possible studio environment within the given parameters that have been imposed upon me.
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This is because I am being thorough as I wish to make the best use of my time / money, and do not want to throw my money away by building a studio that is crap.
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I am sorry if I have asked too many questions or if some of my questions have made any of the users get angry because the questions relate to subject matter that conflicts with their subject opinions.
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Madness really. I am simply a polite, hard working and very inquiring individual who is working hard to create a good studio for his personal use.
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I am not trying to flog any ones product/s. Although, I like to help people where I can.
Sorry if people have a problem with that.
I personally feel that people's problems with what I have written reflect more about their attitude than mine.
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I can accept that people do not agree with me about subjective choice on a matter that is simply subjective, such as an individuals preference with regards to what type of control room they prefer (LEDE/Non environment room etc.).
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However, there really is not need to get the hump about it and try and ruin someone's project by telling them to give up.
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As for asking too many questions, I am sorry, I didn't realize that there was a limit.
Perhaps, if you thought that I was getting out of control, you could have sent me a polite message telling me so.
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Unless of course the forum isn't here for people to ask questions.
If this is the case, then it is my opinion that a studio design forum that people are not allowed to ask questions is pretty pointless really.
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Anyway, I continue to profusely claim that I am not an a hole, I am just learning as quick as I can about a subject that I have not had to deal with before, although this subject does relate to a number of other area's that I do have experience in.
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Thanks anyway, for being so understanding and intelligent.
Cheers

John Sayers wrote:for some one as qualified as you say you are you sure ask a lot of questions - or are you just here to flog Phillip Newells book?

Qualified/experienced not in studio design and basic building techniques, but in sound technology and music producing etc.
By the way. Philip Newell's books bloody good, and it doesn't have a go at you.

I say this not to discredit or to take the mick out of anyone on this forum.
There really isn't any need to be so sensitive (like a big soppy prepubescent teen aged girly)
I would have thought that a forum dedicated to studio design would be well conversed in all the books on the market on the subject, and happy to discuss the contents of all.
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And if someone comes along and suggests alternative methods of achieving good results based on scientific fact that may be of benefit for people to know about, I would of thought people would be pleased to learn.
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No need to get the hump with the guy giving you gifts.
Although sometimes controversial topics may get people riled up from time to time, sometimes the conclusions that are developed from such controversial debates can be good and lead to better ways of working and better results.
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Anyway, no harm meant. I didn't realize the Philip Newell thing was a taboo subject.
I will try and not mention the amazingly experienced and talented Philip Newell and his amazingly informative, bloody well written and super interestingly intelligent book again, as I know it upsets people on this forum (perhaps people who also have a book to flog?).
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Anyway, Thanks for the help so far. I am very thankful for all the help people have given me.
Especially Jbassino, who seems to be a bloody all round good guy. helping everyone.
Thanks.
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Cheers.

most of us don't have a copy of philips book - I have no doubt it's an excellent book but as I don't have a copy it's pretty well meaningless.

Yes - this is a forum on studio design and yes, one would expect questions and answers.

My point was that there are many people on this forum who want answers therefore it's not really cool to try to hog all the answers, especially answers to questions that can easily be answered via Philip Newell's great book.

I am very thankful for all the help that people have given me, including you, John Sayers, for answering one of my questions without contentiousness and without unbiased prejudice (prior to referencing Philip Newell).
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I admit I have quoted a book in places. No different to many other members on the forum, who also have quoted from the same book, and other books, such as Rod Gervais's book.
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In my opinion, books are a very good source of knowledge. Especially when written by people of considerable experience, which, if the introduction to Mr. Newell's book is true, Philip Newell certainly seems to be.
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I feel that it would be fair to say that reading stickies on a website is not that different to reading a book, with perhaps the slight difference that the stickies may not have been edited to the same level of quality prior to being published.
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Sorry for hogging "all the answers". However, a question is the same question, whoever it is from.
To an unprejudiced reader, who has no bias and is seeking only answers, they need not know what the relationship is between a forum users in order to abstract meaning from the information contained within the posts. He simply needs just the answers to the question that he seeks, and if the answers are given in posts started by the same user, I doubt this effects the quality of his learning outcome.
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If it makes you feel better, I could create several user accounts with different names of pretend people from various locations on earth. Then it will look like the questions are coming from different people which will help prejudice people not get angry when encountering a person that they have got it in for.
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I admit I am inexperienced in studio design and building.
Because I am inexperienced in these area's, I have brought and read books in order to give me a foundation knowledge of the main concepts and techniques used.
Of which some of the concepts are complex in nature such as the equations used to calculate the resonance frequency for mass/spring for floating floors.
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Equations that I am sure most studio builders have not invented themselves or learnt from building, which means that they must have learnt the science behind studio design from books or other written sources such as from scientific papers (research papers) on the subject.
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I am not a professional studio designer and have no desire to become one.
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My interest in studio design comes purely from a desire to make my own music in a environment that does not hinder the process and to offer people in the island that I live, a high(er) quality recording facility for low costs (perhaps even free), with intention of helping people achieve their goles in order that they may be productive in life.
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Once I have built my first small studio, I will probably not need to even think about the subject until I have to build my next studio, which will likely be years from now.
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Luckily, I now have the answers to most of my questions that are required for me to build my studio. If there are any other questions I have, I will be sure to refer to Philip Newell's book.
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Seriously though, I am very thankful for all the help I have been given prior to this kick off.
If you feel strongly about having too many posts from me on your forum, please feel free to delete my posts off. Perhaps even delete my profile so that no one would ever know I had even existed.
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Thanks once again.

"Most people who work as professional builders are less technically minded."

Obviously you are in way over your head.

If there is one issue it is that you are like a moving target. Most people come here with the same kind of in-experience you have and ask the same types of questions. But at least we can get them to stay in one place and ask questions...usually build some form of a relationship.

There are several variations and modified ways to float a floor, that I can think of right here. I know that because I bought ALL the books, the ones you speak of as well, I stayed up late at all the right websites and have written papers for highly compatible websites and my personal website gets used as a reference by diy builders 7 days of the week.

You can rest assured, I am a highly technically minded professional builder:)

It is the way that you diy-ers distill the huge amount of energy and man hours it takes to do something of this nature, the education involved, down to reading a few hundred words over the course of a few days or weeks.


When I suggested you not build a floating floor it is simply because NO BODY really knows where it is and what you are up against. If you do the right thing in the wrong area, you collapse a building or worse.

Maybe it is time to start your build thread and get settled into one place that we can find you and discuss your work.

Hopefully this will clear up some of your concerns in you thinking I am not in support.