John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

Hi,

I have recently changed my plans from trying to improve the room I work in at home, to renting a space to work from. It is in a former mill in Manchester, UK. I know I am going to have to compromise on the idea setup here as cost and time are very limited. I take occupation of the place from the start of August, and can't really afford to be paying rent if I'm not in the room working, or at least installing the treatment and getting it ready to use ASAP.

The room was built as band rehearsal space and all the spaces on the floor have reasonably good acoustic seperation, large heavy doors that seal well, double skinned walls etc. Now I know it's not the best, but I have been hunting everywhere for a space and this is what has come available. So I am planning on building for acoustic treatment rather than further isolation. This will save costs as well, and my budget is extremely limited.

the room is approximately 4.2m x 7m with a 3.5m ceiling height. It has a large window at one end that extends up to the ceiling. I am planning on basing my design on John's design for a small studio space http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5457, as the dimensions are somewhat similar, I actually have abit more room than this. Here is an image of that sketchup for easy reference: I've only done a rough floor plan for my studio at the moment, this scheme has only come together in the last couple of days (finding the space and deciding to take it on), and I've not had an opportunity to get access to the unit to take accurate measurememnts for creating a proper plan yet. I intend to do the build myself, budget is extremely tight, I've not had a chance to start working out material costs yet, but I only have £3500 - £4000 available for building materials, no more, unless I do it in stages, perhapse just the control room area for now so I can get working, then finish the other half later.

This is a rented space, and while it's fine for me to install whatever I need, and screw or bolt into walls and ceiling etc, I can't knock a hole in the wall to install an air con unit, I have to be able to return the unit to it's current state when I move on.

Question 1. HVAC question. Could I use a couple of freestanding Aircon units, one in the live room area, and one in the control room? I realise they're not as quiet as a split system, but they simply go through the window. Is there another, better solution here? I feel like there could be something I'm not aware of, please advise.

Question 2. The ceiling is 3.5m high to the lowest point. Am I best to build a hard ceiling over each of my rooms (more expensive) or would a soft ceiling work, and then fill the space above with acoustic hangars as a lot of Low frequency treatment?

I've reserved 65cm on the rear wall of the control room (bottom of the picture) for treatment with hangars and insulation panels.

I will post more detailed plans once I've been able to take accurate measurements of the space and start to make a proper sketchup plan. But I'd appreciate comments on any obvious pitfalls or things I should take into consideration in the meantime in adition to answers to my above questions.

Here are some images of the space as it is, they are deceptive with regards the dimensions and perspective. Thank you

Congratulations on finding the new space!

all the spaces on the floor have reasonably good acoustic seperation, large heavy doors that seal well, double skinned walls etc.

So, the walls we see in those photos are the actual inner-leaf walls of the room? Beyond those there's another similar wall in each direction? Ditto for the ceiling and the window? I might be wrong, but the photos do not seem to be showing that...

So I am planning on building for acoustic treatment rather than further isolation.

That's pretty much what John's design is: just the dividing wall between the booth and CR, and treatment in each room.

I've only done a rough floor plan for my studio at the moment,

Basic idea looks OK, but as they say: "the devil is in the details"...

I can't knock a hole in the wall to install an air con unit, I have to be able to return the unit to it's current state when I move on.

Question 1. HVAC question. Could I use a couple of freestanding Aircon units, one in the live room area, and one in the control room? I realise they're not as quiet as a split system, but they simply go through the window. Is there another, better solution here? I feel like there could be something I'm not aware of, please advise.

Several issues here: If you can't have holes for your HVAC, how are you going to get fresh air in, and stale air out? Freestanding air conditioners and mini-splits alike do not provide any fresh air for the room, nor do they remove stale air. All they do is cool the air that's already in there, or heat it, as the case may be. Or dehumidify it. That's all: nothing else. You still need to get fresh air in somehow, and get rid of the stale air.

Second, if you are allowed to cut a huge hole in the window glass for a traditional "through-the-wall" type air conditioner, or a smaller-but-still-very-large hole for the exhaust duct of a stand-alone unit, then how come you cannot cut a much tinier hole for a mini-split? The pipe "bundle" is just a couple of inches in diameter? I don't see why that would be an issue. If you are allowed to make a hole in the glass large enough for a duct, or for a complete unit, then why would there be any objection to a much smaller hole? What am I missing here?

Question 2. The ceiling is 3.5m high to the lowest point. Am I best to build a hard ceiling over each of my rooms (more expensive) or would a soft ceiling work,

You are not isolating your rooms, and you have no inner-leaf walls anyway that you could attach new inner-leaf ceilings to, so I don't see any purpose in doing that from the isolation point of view. However, your existing ceiling is concave, which is a terrible shape, acoustically, as it tends to focus sound reflections in certain ways, so from that point of view it might not be a bad idea to put some type of solid surface up there, probably on joists attached to the CMU walls, and with insulation above that to damp the resonances. You do have enough space to do that, with your nice high ceilings, and still have enough for a good iso booth room height, and as well as plenty of space for a good cloud in your CR.

build a hard ceiling over each of my rooms (more expensive) or would a soft ceiling work, and then fill the space above with acoustic hangars as a lot of Low frequency treatment?

If you build a hard, massive ceiling, then put hangers ABOVE that, how would that help the room acoustics?? The hangers would be outside the room like that, and thus have very little effect on the room acoustics, if any. If you want hangers on your ceiling, then build them BELOW your new inner-leaf ceiling, and then build a "fake" fabric "ceiling" under that, to hide them visually.

I've reserved 65cm on the rear wall of the control room (bottom of the picture) for treatment with hangars and insulation panels.

That's good, but you seem to be wasting room area with that over-sized bass trap on the left side of the rear wall (opposite the door). It's probably not necessary to take it that far forward along the side wall. Also, if you have the option, I would move the entry door further forward, to give you space for bass trapping in that corner where it is right now.

But I'd appreciate comments on any obvious pitfalls or things I should take into consideration in the meantime in adition to answers to my above questions.

Tell us about the floor.... What's under it, and what are your plans there?

Over all, as you mentioned, it isn't ideal, but it does have possibilities!


- Stuart -

Fantastic, thanks Stuart.

The internal walls are all double layered, left right and where the entrance is, so there is a gap and then another similar wall. The external wall and window is not double layered. Noise to the outside world won't be a problem here, there are no neighbours out there. Of course outside noise may bother me, but I've not noticed anything noisy, there is no traffic on that road as it doesn't go anywhere other than to this mill. I could build an inner window across the front of the alcove the window sits in to add isolation there, will look at doing this in my plans. The floor and ceiling are not built for isolation, this is the original building ceiling.

I was slightly concerned about the arches in the ceiling as well. So I will plan to build some sort of ceiling below the arches. I'll have a think about what the best construction for this should be. Do you think it would need a double layer of plasterboard? Presumably I would also need insulation on the underside? I'm not quite sure of what the construction would have to be, should I build a tripple layer ceiling? - Insulation, plasterboard, insulation

Re- the aircon, that's a good point. I'll make some more enquiries about installation of this then and look at getting a split unit.

The floor is just concrete. I was planning on laying a laminate floor on a layer of underlay insulation once I'd built most of the room treatment. Like one would normally do in a home. Would this be suitable?

I'll re-gig the layout of that bass trap, sadly the door can't be moved so I'm not able to do as much bass trapping there as I would like (at least for the heigh of the door). Above it of course I can put a corner trap in all the way up to the ceiling so i'll plan for that.

A question on fire-proofing. I could use fire retardant plasterboard, it is more expensive, but also denser so no doubt will help a bit with the separation between the spaces. And obviously the rockwool insulation meets fire regs, but what do people usually do about all the timber? Am I over worrying about this aspect? Presumably regular plasterboard is considered OK for most uses, but here is the cost worth it for the added density anyway?

Hopefully I can get in to make some accurate measurements this week and I'll come up with a more complete sketchup plan.

Dan

The floor is just concrete. I was planning on laying a laminate floor on a layer of underlay insulation once I'd built most of the room treatment. Like one would normally do in a home. Would this be suitable?

Yes, a thin underlay is fine.

A question on fire-proofing. I could use fire retardant plasterboard, it is more expensive, but also denser so no doubt will help a bit with the separation between the spaces.

In an MSM system, yes, using more dense sheathing will really help with isolation. But if you just add drywall directly to the existing walls, you won't be improving your isolation as you're working with mass law.

And obviously the rockwool insulation meets fire regs, but what do people usually do about all the timber?

On a traditional wall or an inside out wall?

Am I over worrying about this aspect?

I'm not sure what regulations are in your part of the world so I can't comment.

Presumably regular plasterboard is considered OK for most uses, but here is the cost worth it for the added density anyway?

In terms of isolation, yes, the extra cost is worth it. The drywall used in homes where I live is called "ultra light" and is almost exactly half of the weight of fire rated drywall. The price is almost double for the fire rated type. In studio builds, mass is everything when it comes to isolation.

Greg

Of course outside noise may bother me, but I've not noticed anything noisy,

Hmmmm... So there is nothing in Manchester that could disturb your sessions? No thunder, rain, hail, or wind? No aircraft or helicopters flying over? No sirens from ambulances / police / fire engines? No trains? No cars arriving / leaving / driving past? No dogs barking outside? And nothing in the building either, such as water running in pipes, fans, pumps and other motors, people walking on floors, doors closing, people talking, vacuum cleaners, washing machine, radio, TV, furnace.... There's hundreds of possible sounds that could destroy a good recording, if they get into the mics in your control room. Are you CERTAIN that your room will not get any of that?

I could build an inner window across the front of the alcove the window sits in to add isolation there, will look at doing this in my plans.

That might be a possibility, yes. Seal the current window in place permanently, totally air-tight, leave a decent size air gap, and put another window with thick glass in. Also put the right amount of desiccant in the cavity, to adsorb any moisture trapped in there.

I was slightly concerned about the arches in the ceiling as well. So I will plan to build some sort of ceiling below the arches. I'll have a think about what the best construction for this should be. Do you think it would need a double layer of plasterboard? Presumably I would also need insulation on the underside? I'm not quite sure of what the construction would have to be, should I build a tripple layer ceiling? - Insulation, plasterboard, insulation

Yes you need insulation above that, and also below.... but not necessarily all of the surface below. The actual details depend on what you are trying to accomplish. If you don't need any additional isolation and you just want to avoid the focusing effect, then you could go with just a single layer of something reasonably dense, such as maybe 16mm drywall ("plasterboard"), with maybe 5cm of light insulation on top. If you DO want to increase isolation, then you would need something thicker, and a larger gap. The insulation below that (in the room, not hte cavity) depends on the room itself, and what results you are after.

Re- the aircon, that's a good point. I'll make some more enquiries about installation of this then and look at getting a split unit.

Mini-split HVAC systems do not provide fresh air, nor do they remove stale air. All the do is to heat, cool, and /or dehumidify the air that circulates trough them. Thus, in addition to the mini-split HVAC system, you will still also need one duct to bring in fresh air from the outside world., and another duct to remove the stale air to the outside world.

The floor is just concrete. I was planning on laying a laminate floor on a layer of underlay insulation once I'd built most of the room treatment. Like one would normally do in a home. Would this be suitable?

That's fine, yes. Make sure you get a fairly thick laminate, not one of the thin flimsy ones: 10mm or so is good.

I'll re-gig the layout of that bass trap, sadly the door can't be moved so I'm not able to do as much bass trapping there as I would like (at least for the heigh of the door). Above it of course I can put a corner trap in all the way up to the ceiling so i'll plan for that.

OK. Pity the door can't be moved, but as you say, there's plenty of other places to to bass trapping. Rooms have twelve corners, not just four...

A question on fire-proofing. I could use fire retardant plasterboard, it is more expensive, but also denser so no doubt will help a bit with the separation between the spaces. And obviously the rockwool insulation meets fire regs, but what do people usually do about all the timber? Am I over worrying about this aspect? Presumably regular plasterboard is considered OK for most uses, but here is the cost worth it for the added density anyway?

Check your local building code to find out what the regulations are for fire-resistant materials. There's usually no problem with wood studs, drywall, and mineral wool insulation. But do check: you don't want to start building the place, then have your inspector tell you to tear it all out again and do it with different materials!


- Stuart -