John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

Hey everyone!
Thanks so much for this forum, I've learned a tonne of useful info over the years, but only just made a profile recently.
I have a new building which I have gutted, but am still finalizing plans before I do anything else.

Location

-Limerick City, Ireland
-City centre commercial unit.
-Its a leased unit that I intend on renting long term.
-Unit is in an area with a lot of bars and nightclubs. But I also have residential neighbours less than a block from me.
-The unit is #3 of 8 in a row, two others are used for music, two for art and a physio.
-The neighbour to my left will also being doing sound isolation work internally to use his spot for rehearsing.
-The neighbour to my right, however runs a retail shop with normal 9-6 hours


The Building

-The construction of all units is concrete cavity/cinder blocks, with a single wall in between each unit.
-The floor is solid concrete, with tiles in one room and carpet on the other.
-The roof is slate/tiles with a layer of fibreglass and drywall stuck to the rafters.
-Theres a rear door to an alley, and at the front there’s a ‘Shopfront’ with a glass door, and a large window approx 2.4 x 1.6 m in total (including door)
-The were at one point doors connecting all of the units which have been blocked up, but not to the highest standard, so i will have to fill a lot of holes and gaps.
-Dimensions - 13m (L) x 6.25m (W) 4.3m (H live room ) 2.2m (H Control Room)
-There is also a mezzanine level above the centre of the room, which i will eventually use as a small production room, and for storage.
-The steel supports of the mezzanine don’t touch the walls of the building itself.


What I do, and What I need the place for

I spend around 70 percent of the time mixing and producing, and the other 30 percent tracking bands, singer songwriters, and doing drum session work.
The loudest stuff, such as drumming would be around 115-120 dB in the live room.
My current building is a large warehouse but is very cold, has no windows and unfortunately i don’t have the option of staying for much longer.
I would like to be able to track drums during the day and not bother my retail neighbour.

Ideally id like to have a live room, control room and possibly a small booth as well.

Budget

im expecting to spend between 6-8k on materials and I will be doing most of the work myself and with the help of friends.

Construction Methods

-Room within a room construction for all rooms.
-Im looking at doing the inside out type walls for most walls, unless advised otherwise.
-Wooden stud walls with slab rock wool insulation/Drywall/Greenglue/Drywall and possibly extra insulation in the cavities between the rooms and the shell of the building.
-Ceiling hung on 2x6 ceiling joists resting on the stud walls.
-I will be putting a wooden laminate floor in with underlay in all rooms.
-Two glass sliding doors, one connected to the live room wall, one connected to the control room wall.
-The middle room, currently designated as the control room, was measured up using one of the ‘golden ratios’ initially and then re-shaped slightly to the RFZ shape, which due to the shape of the building, actually allowed for more available floor space in Sq m, but i don’t know if that upsets the ratio too much.


Design

My friend Dave, another member here, did up a sketchup file for me and has helped me a lot with the design/layout!
SKP link -
https://drive.google.com/file/d/12mLtqk ... sp=sharing

There are two versions, one with the RFZ shape, and one with a more basic rectangle design.
Pics Below:

Questions and Potential Issues

1. What kind of TL values can I hope to achieve if the building is done correctly with my proposed design versus what else i might be able to do?
2. How much TL can i expect to get from the Cavity/cinder block wall in between my unit and the retail one, assuming its all uniform and there are no weakpoints.
3. Will I be able to keep any natural light in to what is currently the live room in the design, by using windows fitted into the isolated wall, assuming the windows end up being the same mass as the wall?
4. I don’t know whether to put the control room at the front, by the windows with the high ceiling, or put the control room in the middle, under the mezzanine. I would avoid some potential noise problems leaking out the window this way, but then my live room would be restricted to a 2.3 m ceiling height.
5. If i put the control room at the front, would i be okay to leave the roof slanted as in the design, or should i make it symmetrical and ‘vault’ it instead?
6. If I’m still getting too much transfer of sound into my neighbour, will adding more mass into the live room, such as more drywall be an effective way to handle this?
7. Would I better off going with basic rectangle type construction for the rooms instead as it will be a more straightforward build?

Thanks so much for all the help, looking forward to hearing from some of you.
-Ben

Welcome Ben. Have you committed to this paricular location already?


1. What kind of TL values can I hope to achieve if the building is done correctly with my proposed design versus what else i might be able to do?

Depends.... Mass Air Mass Your outer Mass layer is hollow blocks, so not a great start. Doubling the Air Gap adds up to 6dB to TL. Doubling the Mass of the interior leaf Ditto.
2. How much TL can i expect to get from the Cavity/cinder block wall in between my unit and the retail one, assuming its all uniform and there are no weakpoints.

Very little, and at LF very very little.

3. Will I be able to keep any natural light in to what is currently the live room in the design, by using windows fitted into the isolated wall, assuming the windows end up being the same mass as the wall?

Windows are nearly always weak points.

4. I don’t know whether to put the control room at the front, by the windows with the high ceiling, or put the control room in the middle, under the mezzanine. I would avoid some potential noise problems leaking out the window this way, but then my live room would be restricted to a 2.3 m ceiling height.

Very low, no room for ceiling treatment.

5. If i put the control room at the front, would i be okay to leave the roof slanted as in the design, or should i make it symmetrical and ‘vault’ it instead?

Symmetrical generally makes life easier, but with extensive ceiling treatment, what ceiling?

6. If I’m still getting too much transfer of sound into my neighbour, will adding more mass into the live room, such as more drywall be an effective way to handle this?

Mass Law point 1.

7. Would I better off going with basic rectangle type construction for the rooms instead as it will be a more straightforward build?

Probably. When a room is extensively treated, the sound waves see no boundaries.

Hi Dan, Thanks very much for the reply.

Im not 100% committed, but I am leaning towards taking the spot. Nothings set in stone.

I was considering plastering the Concrete block wall, to both seal any gaps but also to add mass to it, I was told I might be able to get another 6 dB or so of TL that way. Would that help in any useable way?

So if I go with the control room under the mezzanine level, im stuck with a 2.3m ceiling height in there. Do you think thats okay (but not ideal) for a control room? considering its where I do 70 % of my work

I think it is 3dB per side for about 1cm.

Thanks again, Dan.

Starting to think that if I want my ceiling height, i might need to just remove the mezzanine floor in that place. it disassembles, so shouldnt take more than a day to do if I decide to stay there.
I'll lose the option of an upstairs studio, but ill have a better layout to work with.

Can you get in there at the moment? It would be good to measure some incoming sound levels. Room Eq Wizard will even Log SPL unattended. Most Sound Level Meters and Software may default to A filters. Lose that, we want C or Z (Zero) filters, i.e. full range flat.
It would be good to get a spectrum of the incoming noise also. REW will also do that.
There are also iPhone apps...... SoundMeterX by Faber Acoustical and AudioTools by Studiosixdigital.
Any of these measurement systems will become a friend for life, particularly REW.

Yeah I can get a measurement of that either tomorrow or the day after for sure. Will probably help me answer some questions!

Finally got a few measurements between my unit and the retail one next door.

I used a SPL meter with a C weighting.

Ambient Levels
average internal ambient level 49dB
average level internal with retail units AC on 55dB

Ambient level outside between 70 to 80 dB [city noise]

Drum Levels

Inside my empty unit while playing drums pretty hard
115 dB MAX
112 dB Avg

Inside neighbouring retail unit while drums are being played
57 to 63dB Avg
70 dB MAX , but only in one spot by the front door, not in the shop itself.


I was very surprised by the amount of sound loss there was between the two units!
I spent a few days, however, working on the existing walls filling any gaps, and adding mass with concrete render and MDF in a few spots which used to be doors, so they didnt have the same mass as the rest of the walls.