John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

Hello – I would like to say thanks to Knightfly for directing me to this forum, it’s been a really big help. I went through a lot of the sticky’s which helped a ton, but on the other hand I feel even more overwhelmed, but I’ll keep pluggin away. I had been reading quite a bit before getting to this site as well.

I guess the biggest difficulty for me right now is with all of the great info here, how to actually “execute” my project using the said information, but with my specific variables? I guess I need a push in the right direction so to speak, or what would you do kind of approach. I am already in the building phase so I need to make fairly quick decisions.

Goal:
I’m a drummer and am finishing my basement. I have a room carved out for my space and although not ideal because of the mechanical utilities, it’s what I have. I want to reduce sound leakage as much as possible to the upstairs and the rest of the house. I understand I’m not going to get a soundproof room, but I have to think that with many of the techniques available, I can reduce sound levels significantly. If I am wrong with that statement then I may as well just build a “standard” room and not go through the $$$ and time trying to get the results I’m after. Not to concerned with sound getting to the outside of the house. I will do some recording and maybe have other musicians over, but really is a space for my gear.

Description of area:
The house is a walk out and has two and a half existing walls. The back wall is about half concrete and stud construction (insulated with vapor barrier), the other wall is all above ground with a window (insulated with vapor barrier) and the other half wall is in interior wall that separates the furnace room. There will be two new walls => the closet area that connects to an existing wall (were furnace is located) and a wall that divides the room to the rec room (were the door will be attached). The ceiling is 2x10’s and has several of joists with some HVAC, fresh air tube to outside etc. The floor is concrete. The room size is 12x11 with 8ft ceilings.

I already have the 2x6 walls up and have added a heat run. I’m going to start the soffet’s next and enclosing and isolating those two main runs will be a challenge (design wise)? I will also need to make an “access panel” to gain access to the humidistat located on the furnace.

I have R19 insulation for all of the 2x6 areas and R38 for the ceiling area. I have not purchased the rock yet but planned on putting double 5/8” on the inside walls and ceiling and maybe one or two layers of 5/8” on the outside walls (it sounds like one layer on the outside would be the way to go)? All rock attached to studs. However, I have been considering the thought of getting RC’s for the ceiling but cost is an issue. I haven’t decided yet.

Also I am going to put “acoustic” ceiling planking as part of the entire basement project and have enough to do my area as well. The product link is below and is a tongue and groove assembly attached to furring strips.
http://www.armstrong.com/resclgam/na/ce ... Id=44894.0


Before I ramble on any more, would anyone like to share some thoughts and advice?

Regards,
Steve

The images and pictures look great, but they must be resized ASAP (quick, before John sees them!) to <700 pixels wide.
John has a zero tolerance policy on oversized photos nowadays.

Once the images are resized, I'm sure I'll have some thoughts to share with you...
But I'm getting dizzy scrolling from side to side, even on my oversized display.

--Keith

sharward wrote:The images and pictures look great, but they must be resized ASAP (quick, before John sees them!) to <700 pixels wide.
John has a zero tolerance policy on oversized photos nowadays.

Once the images are resized, I'm sure I'll have some thoughts to share with you...
But I'm getting dizzy scrolling from side to side, even on my oversized display.

--Keith

Sorry, I had compressed them but did not resize them. My bad. I re-attached

Thanks

Thanks for resizing the images, foggie. The pictures and illustrations look great.

I also read your intro post (alright -- fellow drummer! ), and I'm concerned about a few things. First of all, I'm not seeing any real efforts to decouple. You mentioned that you're considering RC for the ceiling, but you haven't said anything about the walls yet.

The 3D rendering of your space is really cool -- but I think it would be helpful to see a 2D top-view floorplan that will show the precise placement for your walls.

It will also help to know the construction of the floor overhead. You mentioned that the joists are 2x10s but what's above that?

It's good that you have 8 foot ceilings to start with -- a blessing many of your fellow basement studio dwellers aren't lucky enough to have. However, it's still not a lot of room to work with.

Many of the things that I think would be recommended to you are difficult to do now, since our wall frames are already up. For example, having a new ceiling framed and attached to the tops of your new walls, with the ceiling joists interleaved between the existing ceiling joists, isn't really an option now (unless you're willing to undo much of what you've already done). That would have yielded much better results as you'd have two independent ceilings with a larger air gap than you can easily and effectively achieve with RC.

You mentioned having to allow provision an access panel to get to your humidistat. Does this mean you would not be able to get to the entire furnace if necessary? What if the furnace fails completely and needs to be replaced? Will this be possible under your current plan? If not, then not only would it be a royal pain when (not if) that happens. I also don't think that would meet code (although I'm by far not a code expert).

That's all I have for now. Perhaps others have some ideas to share or concerns they want to raise.

[quote="sharward"]Thanks for resizing the images, foggie. The pictures and illustrations look great.


I also read your intro post (alright -- fellow drummer! ), and I'm concerned about a few things. First of all, I'm not seeing any real efforts to decouple. You mentioned that you're considering RC for the ceiling, but you haven't said anything about the walls yet.

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Well I think when I looked at the entire project expense of just finishing the basement itself and then adding all of the additional expense of “soundproofing” my area, I got pretty overwhelmed and just figured to do the best I can. Meaning, I know I’m not going to get a soundproof room but thinking I can reduce the overall noise to an acceptable level. What acceptable is has yet to be determined. I know “winging” this is not the best approach, but everything I read gets so involved (for good reason I understand) and so $$$$.

The 3D rendering of your space is really cool -- but I think it would be helpful to see a 2D top-view floorplan that will show the precise placement for your walls.

I’ll try and put something together.

It will also help to know the construction of the floor overhead. You mentioned that the joists are 2x10s but what's above that?

Standard issue “house construction” e.g. plywood sub floor glued and nailed to the joists with pad and then carpet ? Hope that’s what you were looking for.

It's good that you have 8 foot ceilings to start with -- a blessing many of your fellow basement studio dwellers aren't lucky enough to have. However, it's still not a lot of room to work with.
Many of the things that I think would be recommended to you are difficult to do now, since our wall frames are already up. For example, having a new ceiling framed and attached to the tops of your new walls, with the ceiling joists interleaved between the existing ceiling joists, isn't really an option now (unless you're willing to undo much of what you've already done). That would have yielded much better results as you'd have two independent ceilings with a larger air gap than you can easily and effectively achieve with RC.

My initial plan was to build a ceiling wall and attach it to the tops of the new walls etc. but $$ started to come into play. I suppose this could still be done w/o too much work. Again I understand the ideal situation = double wall or room within a room etc. but I guess I’m trying to take bits and pieces of these different methods and try to better my situation. Which is, a drum room in an unfinished basement that is pretty loud to the main level.

You mentioned having to allow provision an access panel to get to your humidistat. Does this mean you would not be able to get to the entire furnace if necessary? What if the furnace fails completely and needs to be replaced? Will this be possible under your current plan? If not, then not only would it be a royal pain when (not if) that happens. I also don't think that would meet code (although I'm by far not a code expert).

The furnace will be accessible from the utility room just as it is now. The only new construction is the closet area and I have left enough room between the “front” of the furnace and outside wall of the closet. Also the existing walls will be insulated and rock’d. The access panel thingy is just to have the ability to access the humidistat cover for filter changes, maintenance etc. However the front cover is facing my room in between the existing 2x6 walls so I need to access it.

It's late and brain is mushhhh as it is. I have many aspects to think about. I'll check back tomorrow.

Thanks again, I really appreciate it!

Steve

I guess the "moment of truth" for you will be when the room is finished and you start making noise. You said at the beginning that you don't care so much about sound leaking from the house -- that's because you need binoculars to see your nearest neighbor, right? (I hope! ) Tell us more about this so that we know how frightened we need to be for you.

I think it's safe to say that you're pretty much just finishing a room in your basement. Having the 2nd layer of gypsum wallboard on the "loud" side certainly won't hurt, but I doubt it's going to make a very noticable difference in transmission loss.

The thing about soundproofing, as you probably figured out in your studies up to this point, is that if you worry and design to 90% of but neglect 10%, you don't get a 90% satisfactory result -- you usually get something closer to a 0% satisfactory result. It's that pesky last 10% that makes or breaks the project.

You're in the unenviable position of (a) having already started construction and (b) having a very limited budget. Going forward I would think that we could help by showing you how not to make things worse (as many things one might think would improve outcomes often have the opposite effect).

You seem to have the right attitude though -- not expecting miracles or simple solutions to complex problems. We sometimes get folks who have unrealistic expectations and then express their frustration at us for telling them the truth.

Even if you don't have specific questions, I hope you'll continue to post pictures of your progress and, of course, tell us about the outcome. Your thread will surely be an education for others in similar situations.

--Keith

sharward wrote:I guess the "moment of truth" for you will be when the room is finished and you start making noise. You said at the beginning that you don't care so much about sound leaking from the house -- that's because you need binoculars to see your nearest neighbor, right? (I hope! ) Tell us more about this so that we know how frightened we need to be for you.

I think it's safe to say that you're pretty much just finishing a room in your basement. Having the 2nd layer of gypsum wallboard on the "loud" side certainly won't hurt, but I doubt it's going to make a very noticable difference in transmission loss.

The thing about soundproofing, as you probably figured out in your studies up to this point, is that if you worry and design to 90% of but neglect 10%, you don't get a 90% satisfactory result -- you usually get something closer to a 0% satisfactory result. It's that pesky last 10% that makes or breaks the project.

You're in the unenviable position of (a) having already started construction and (b) having a very limited budget. Going forward I would think that we could help by showing you how not to make things worse (as many things one might think would improve outcomes often have the opposite effect).

You seem to have the right attitude though -- not expecting miracles or simple solutions to complex problems. We sometimes get folks who have unrealistic expectations and then express their frustration at us for telling them the truth.

Even if you don't have specific questions, I hope you'll continue to post pictures of your progress and, of course, tell us about the outcome. Your thread will surely be an education for others in similar situations.

--Keith

I haven’t had any real noise issues with neighbors – they know me – we are all friends etc. Also, I don’t typically play at 2am either. Don’t get me wrong, I do need to omit as much leakage to the outside as possible and hope to do so, but the inside is the priority.

Spending well into the ten of thousands of dollars to finish the basement (I won’t even have a finished bathroom and finished floor!) doesn’t leave a lot $$ to throw around at acoustic design – for me. Which if you want the results really needed you need $$ to throw around.

I have realized at this point I pretty much screwed and am not going to stress over this anymore. Although as I pointed out I’m not expecting miracles and really just want reduce overall volume levels as much as possible given my situation – I’m ok with that. My attitude is strong and positive though and will try my hardest given my circumstances

I’m in the mechanical design/engineering field so I understand the complexities of what goes into designing such a room/structure. I use the term understand relatively speaking.

I know my situation is not even in the same ballpark as most here, and I’m sure the last thing people want is another newbie wanting to know how to sound proof a room for little $$. That’s not my intent and wouldn’t insult the intelligence and time from anyone here in asking such a question.

So with that said, I do have questions. However, as you pointed out probably the biggest help right now would be to show me things not to do given my variables. Like you said, things that seem like they would improve may actually make it worse, so I really want to avoid that doing that. I attached another illustration per your request.

I finished the soffeting on the other side of my wall (rec room) and will start framing the soffets in my room in the next day or so. Instead of “running” one long box for the soffet, I’m creating them in two sections if you will. E.g. Soffeting in my room => 2x6 stud wall => soffeting in rec room. This might be a bit challenging (trying to isolate the duct work) but I was thinking on leaving as much “air space” in the framing so I could add some insulation? However, the height from the floor to the bottom of the soffet has to be within code.

So any suggestions, general comments, things not to do etc.? Is there anyway to take advantage of the Armstrong planks I plan on installing after the rock e.g. the air gap. Techniques to use not use when installing these?

Regards,
Steve

foggie,

here are a couple of things.

the plan you have now with the drywall, then furring strips, then ceiling panel is VERY BAD because this little gap that the furring strip creates creates a resonant space that will severely weaken your isolation at low frequencies.

you need to have one airgap between your upstairs floor and your studio ceiling, even tiny 1/8 inch gaps will hurt your ceiling system more than you would ever expect.

if you already have the armstrong stuff and you are going to use it cuz you have it, then apply it directly to the last layer of drywall without any furring strips, using a method that leaves NO airspace in between (glue?). or just leave it out. it has no acoustic value.

same with the walls. between the outside of your exterior wall and the inside surface of your studio wall should have one large airspace.

my understanding of how RC works is that it does not help low frequency performance if your airspace is over about six inches. it will help the mids and highs though quite a bit. but your airspace if you use RC will be around 9 3/4 inches. so you will lessen low freq performance i think while raising mid and upper performance. since you are a drummer this probably is not good.

this is a tricky area. if it were me, i would have to think long and hard about whether RC would help me or hurt me here. it's a bit of a grey area in my opinion, and there is no easy answer because there are so many variables.

we need to know whether the RC will raise the mass-air-mass frequency of this space, and i suspect it will based on Canadian research reports i have read. however variables like RC spacing and the total weight of the drywall will affect this.

complicating matters is that a single stud construction (like your ceiling WITHOUT RC) does not have a true MAM frequency, it sort of resonates as a whole. so it is to some degree like comparing apples and oranges.

see more of my rambling on this subject here: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 8102#28102

Edited 10/3/05 ... this is wrong advice, i'm sorry to say. From what i understand now there is virtually no difference between a wall with 2x4 studs and 2x12 studs or whatever, if the drywall is directly attached. RC would definitely be good to use on the ceiling regardless of how much space there is.

if you have walls where you are using 2x4 or 2x6 studs, RC will definitely help you. don't skimp on costs here. it's only the ceiling that is questionable to me.

fill your walls/ceiling completely with insulation. the more the better. don't overstuff too much though, just enough for slightly firm contact between leaves. that may mean using multiple layers of insulation or thicker stuff.

also: put your location in your profile. what kind of vapor barrier is this? is it appropriate for your climate? do you live in an area where you will run the heater most of the year?

dan

by the way can you also add more layers (gypsum will work) to the underside of your floor layer (between the joists)

foggie,

here are a couple of things.

the plan you have now with the drywall, then furring strips, then ceiling panel is VERY BAD because this little gap that the furring strip creates creates a resonant space that will severely weaken your isolation at low frequencies.

you need to have one airgap between your upstairs floor and your studio ceiling, even tiny 1/8 inch gaps will hurt your ceiling system more than you would ever expect.

if you already have the armstrong stuff and you are going to use it cuz you have it, then apply it directly to the last layer of drywall without any furring strips, using a method that leaves NO airspace in between (glue?). or just leave it out. it has no acoustic value

That bites. When you say no acoustic value do you mean, no help in preventing transmission loss, no acoustic reinforcement or both? I would have thought these planks would have been a plus in toning down the room a bit. I’m not sure about glue or similar method. From reading the specs and installation info they provide it says not to have insulation directly on the back side of the material => meaning you must leave an air gap. Whether or not rock would be of the same consideration I don’t know, I’ll give them a call

my understanding of how RC works is that it does not help low frequency performance if your airspace is over about six inches. it will help the mids and highs though quite a bit. but your airspace if you use RC will be around 9 3/4 inches. so you will lessen low freq performance i think while raising mid and upper performance. since you are a drummer this probably is not good.

this is a tricky area. if it were me, i would have to think long and hard about whether RC would help me or hurt me here. it's a bit of a grey area in my opinion, and there is no easy answer because there are so many variables.

we need to know whether the RC will raise the mass-air-mass frequency of this space, and i suspect it will based on Canadian research reports i have read. however variables like RC spacing and the total weight of the drywall will affect this.

complicating matters is that a single stud construction (like your ceiling WITHOUT RC) does not have a true MAM frequency, it sort of resonates as a whole. so it is to some degree like comparing apples and oranges.

see more of my rambling on this subject here: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 8102#28102

if you have walls where you are using 2x4 or 2x6 studs, RC will definitely help you. don't skimp on costs here. it's only the ceiling that is questionable to me

I’m a bit confused => you’re saying if I have 2x6 studs RC will help, but above you think that it may go against me (are you saying they will help with the mids only but for sure not the lows) Sorry, I just need some clarification

The ceiling is a weak point, especially since several of the joist “cavities” have HVAC, water lines etc. I’ll take some shots of the ceiling tonight.

- Given this, are RC’s a must?
- Can I / should I use RC’s on the ceiling only and not the walls?
- Are there specific RC brands/models I should be looking at?
- Can I find these through my local home center? I did ask a guy at Home Depot about these and he said he can get them through a contractor they use. Should I follow up on this and get the specific model / brand? I know these stores carry little in the way of acoustics items, I just asked him that’s all

fill your walls/ceiling completely with insulation. the more the better. don't overstuff too much though, just enough for slightly firm contact between leaves. that may mean using multiple layers of insulation or thicker stuff

Yes, I plan on this.

also: put your location in your profile. what kind of vapor barrier is this? is it appropriate for your climate? do you live in an area where you will run the heater most of the year?

I thought my profile displayed this => St. Paul, Minnesota, USA? Should this also include the Midwest?


Another big issue that I have to decide on is the HVAC run’s leaving my room. See pics for perspective. Suggestions welcome. Is this “area” going to really mess things up (as far as transmission loss) or can I get away with isolating this in a pretty good fashion. If you notice the 7ft dimension, in the 2d view it shows the dimension from the floor to the bottom of the HVAC. It's really a like 7.25. The only reason I mention this is because code is 7ft (from finished soffet). I could be a little under in a situation like this, since the damn builders didn't really take into account the framing. So if it ends up like 6'11" it would be fine.

Thanks again,

Regards,
Steve

Dan Fitzpatrick wrote:by the way can you also add more layers (gypsum will work) to the underside of your floor layer (between the joists)

Wouldn't this take up too much of the insulating space? Is there a certain installation method you can refer me to - adhesive, screw into joists etc?

FWIW - I have access to a bunch of DOW grey/blue board (2" extruded styrofoam (not sure what the exact material is). It's used for insulation foundations and comes in 4x8 sheet. Anyway, is this stuff good for anything particularly in my situation?

Also, based on more reading, there was some discussion on creating a floating drum riser and that by doing so, can isolate/decouple freq. from the room. Would this be of some benefit in my situation.

Thanks,
Steve

foggie wrote:When you say no acoustic value do you mean, no help in preventing transmission loss, no acoustic reinforcement or both? I would have thought these planks would have been a plus in toning down the room a bit.

to tone down the room these planks would have to be absorptive, not reflective. can air pass through these planks? if not then it can't absorb any sound or keep it from reflecting. i'm not talking about soundproofing here but acoustic performance (how it sounds inside). you need much more robust treatments than this to treat a room.

i think they are using the term "acoustic" very loosely, probably trying to claim some diffusive effect from small textures. like popcorn ceiling. i could be wrong though.

foggie wrote:I’m a bit confused => you’re saying if I have 2x6 studs RC will help, but above you think that it may go against me (are you saying they will help with the mids only but for sure not the lows) Sorry, I just need some clarification

i don't blame you for being confused ... that is what i was saying. on the walls RC is a no-brainer, i think, while on the ceiling i have my doubts.

but i wouldn't be surprised if others disagree and would recommend RC on the ceiling as well. so don't take my word for it. Edit 10/3/05 ... yes definitely don't listen to this. this is wrong. RC is good to use here. my bad!

not sure what the exact name of the RC you want is, but make sure you find out and get the right one (and NOT "hat channel") ... there should be plenty of info on this site on this ...

sorry about missing your location, i forgot that the location doesn't show in the "topic review" window when making a response

i'm guessing in st. paul the vapor barrier is correct

by the way, i should have warned you that i'm not an expert, so make sure you get plenty of other opinions

dan

foggie wrote:Wouldn't this take up too much of the insulating space?

the added mass here is more imporant than the inch or so of space you will lose.

there are examples of this on the site, i'll try to find the link when i have a minute.

foggie wrote:FWIW - I have access to a bunch of DOW grey/blue board (2" extruded styrofoam ... is this stuff good for anything particularly in my situation?

not really ... it doesn't work as in-wall insulation for sound isolation purposes because air cannot go through it. it just will take up valuable cavity space, and can act as a third leaf too if you put it in the wrong place.

Dan wrote:

to tone down the room these planks would have to be absorptive, not reflective. can air pass through these planks? if not then it can't absorb any sound or keep it from reflecting. i'm not talking about soundproofing here but acoustic performance (how it sounds inside). you need much more robust treatments than this to treat a room

Yep, totally aware that sound treatment/acoustic performance and soundproofing are completely different animals. Again, was thinking this would add “some” value to the acoustic performance but the main purpose is aesthetics. I did talk to the manufacture and they said it can be applied directly to the rock with acoustic cement?


Dan wrote:

i think they are using the term "acoustic" very loosely, probably trying to claim some diffusive effect from small textures. like popcorn ceiling. i could be wrong though.

Agreed. FYI - the material is solid but porus.

Dan wrote:

i don't blame you for being confused ... that is what i was saying. on the walls RC is a no-brainer, i think, while on the ceiling i have my doubts.

but i wouldn't be surprised if others disagree and would recommend RC on the ceiling as well. so don't take my word for it.

not sure what the exact name of the RC you want is, but make sure you find out and get the right one (and NOT "hat channel") ... there should be plenty of info on this site on this ...

I know there is a lot of RC info on this site but I’m having a heck of a time finding a product number, sources locally and prices here etc.

However, I can get this locally and seems to be on par with the info in NRCC-44692?
http://www.dietrichindustries.com/produ ... _46-47.pdf

Does this look to be of the right design? Although they list several part numbers, the RC deluxe would appear to be what I want? However, they mention that ceiling treatments typically use the double leg product, which is a bad idea. I don’t need to be nit-picky here but if I call other places locally and they say “yes we have RC’s” what are the spec’s that I can refer to so I know they are going to work with 2 layers of rock on the walls and ceiling?

Dan wrote:

sorry about missing your location, i forgot that the location doesn't show in the "topic review" window when making a response

No problem

Dan Wrote:

i'm guessing in st. paul the vapor barrier is correct

by the way, i should have warned you that i'm not an expert, so make sure you get plenty of other opinions
dan

Well, no one else has chime’d in, so I guess you are my go to person. So if any of this fails it’s all on you! Kidding of course.

I have added some additional pics showing my HVAC/soffet dilemma and the ceiling area being used for runs etc. The pic that shows the “phantom” soffet area has some questions at the bottom if anyone wants to comment. The other pics show the heavy rubber material I have access to => is this of any use, say on the outside of the HVAC, in between rock layers etc. Sorry I don't have a product name/number but this stuff is real heavy duty, it's used for commercial building construction. I also have access to a thick 1/8-1/4 inch sticky roofing underlayment. I will see if I can find out the acutal material.

Regards,
Steve

However, I can get this locally and seems to be on par with the info in NRCC-44692?
http://www.dietrichindustries.com/produ ... _46-47.pdf

yeah this looks like the right stuff. not the double leg! the single leg.

sorry to be so vague but i'm not using RC so i haven't researched it. (using all double framed walls/ceiling).

i'm not sure how you determine the spacing, depending on weight of layers of course.

sorry nobody else has chimed in. i hope that means my advice is ok nobody should be afraid of stepping on MY toes, that's for sure i actually enjoy being told i'm full of crap, sometimes i even pay for it