Soundproof room so neighbors will not go nuts!
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John Mayes
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 3:17 pm
Soundproof room so neighbors will not go nuts!
I'm dealing with a 10ft square room that will be used for tracking that I need to soundproof as much as possible as it is in a commercial building and don't want to disturb the people below and next door. What would be the best way to approch something like this and how much sound reduction can one realistically expect....thanks!
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knightfly
- Senior Member
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- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
John, first of all welcome to the site - just checked out yours (some really nice looking work, BTW) and it gave me a good analogy for you -
If someone asked you how to build a guitar, and didn't specify anything other than it needed to have 6 strings, would you know enough to feel confident that you were building the instrument they really wanted? It's the same with a room, when you stop and think about it - in a sense, they're both acoustic instruments, and as such there are many factors that can change the end result.
First off, a square room will have problems with several frequencies being supported by two of the dimensions (three, if the ceiling is ALSO 10 feet - please say it ISN'T...)
If by "tracking" you really mean recording instruments in this room, and the control/mixing area is separate, then, depending on whether you actually intend to KEEP any of these recordings or not, you need to improve on the acoustics of the room. This has little to do with sound PROOFing, which I prefer to call sound ISOLATION due to the fact that you can NEVER completely kill sound, only attenuate it enough not to matter any more. Think of this in terms of a bullet-proof vest - you get a "bullet-proof" vest, your enemy buys a 50 caliber sniper rifle - vest not quite bullet "proof" any more...
Anyway, some of the things we'll need to know in order to figure out how much isolation you need and can get -
From the wall your neighbor sees, through each layer to the surface of the wall that's on YOUR side, exactly what is there, layer by layer? (I know this may be a difficult question to answer, but do your best - maybe the building owner has plans, etc?)
Same question, only the floor -
Do you already have a Sound Level Meter, such as the ones Radio Shack sells? If not, you should get one - they're about $40. You'll be taking some necessary measurements with this.
What are the EXACT dimensions of the inside of your room, including height? What is the ceiling made of? How solid does the floor feel when you jump on it?
What type of instruments will you record in the room? Electric guitar, bass, drums, kazoo, etc...
What is your budget for this project?
Who will do the construction, you or some construction guy who thinks he knows more than you (and we) do?
There are more things to sort out here, but I'm running late to bed so will have to continue later - please check into all the points above, and we'll see what happens. Odds are, you'll need to build a fully floated room if you intend to make large quantities of low frequency noise - otherwise, maybe not... Steve
If someone asked you how to build a guitar, and didn't specify anything other than it needed to have 6 strings, would you know enough to feel confident that you were building the instrument they really wanted? It's the same with a room, when you stop and think about it - in a sense, they're both acoustic instruments, and as such there are many factors that can change the end result.
First off, a square room will have problems with several frequencies being supported by two of the dimensions (three, if the ceiling is ALSO 10 feet - please say it ISN'T...)
If by "tracking" you really mean recording instruments in this room, and the control/mixing area is separate, then, depending on whether you actually intend to KEEP any of these recordings or not, you need to improve on the acoustics of the room. This has little to do with sound PROOFing, which I prefer to call sound ISOLATION due to the fact that you can NEVER completely kill sound, only attenuate it enough not to matter any more. Think of this in terms of a bullet-proof vest - you get a "bullet-proof" vest, your enemy buys a 50 caliber sniper rifle - vest not quite bullet "proof" any more...
Anyway, some of the things we'll need to know in order to figure out how much isolation you need and can get -
From the wall your neighbor sees, through each layer to the surface of the wall that's on YOUR side, exactly what is there, layer by layer? (I know this may be a difficult question to answer, but do your best - maybe the building owner has plans, etc?)
Same question, only the floor -
Do you already have a Sound Level Meter, such as the ones Radio Shack sells? If not, you should get one - they're about $40. You'll be taking some necessary measurements with this.
What are the EXACT dimensions of the inside of your room, including height? What is the ceiling made of? How solid does the floor feel when you jump on it?
What type of instruments will you record in the room? Electric guitar, bass, drums, kazoo, etc...
What is your budget for this project?
Who will do the construction, you or some construction guy who thinks he knows more than you (and we) do?
There are more things to sort out here, but I'm running late to bed so will have to continue later - please check into all the points above, and we'll see what happens. Odds are, you'll need to build a fully floated room if you intend to make large quantities of low frequency noise - otherwise, maybe not... Steve
Soooo, when a Musician dies, do they hear the white noise at the end of the tunnel??!? Hmmmm...
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Eric_Desart
- Senior Member
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- Location: Antwerp/Belgium
- Contact:
Hello John.
Additional to Steve I should suggest to check if there are no local regulations to comlpy with.
Often when there are complaints a judge will use regulations for commercial activities in order to quantify/judge a complaint which can be a subjective thing.
One should be aware when one invests in a room, that one should be careful not to become too dependent on the goodwill of the neighbors.
Best regards
Eric
Additional to Steve I should suggest to check if there are no local regulations to comlpy with.
Often when there are complaints a judge will use regulations for commercial activities in order to quantify/judge a complaint which can be a subjective thing.
One should be aware when one invests in a room, that one should be careful not to become too dependent on the goodwill of the neighbors.
Best regards
Eric
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John Mayes
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 3:17 pm
Thanks for the help guys...I'll get cracking on the questions Steve...I'm being "hired" if you will to do this. It is actually a good friend who is converting the room and of the people he knows I have the most experience in building things (I've built, and or helped build houses, garages, shops, ect as well as furnitire, and guitars obviously..) I posed the questions to him and here are the answers I got.....
First off, a square room will have problems with several frequencies being supported by two of the dimensions (three, if the ceiling is ALSO 10 feet - please say it ISN'T...)
The ceiling is 8 foot and there is a small clost that protrudes from the wall a foot or two (I'm getting diagrams within a couple days)
If by "tracking" you really mean recording instruments in this room, and the control/mixing area is separate, then, depending on whether you actually intend to KEEP any of these recordings or not, you need to improve on the acoustics of the room. This has little to do with sound PROOFing, which I prefer to call sound ISOLATION due to the fact that you can NEVER completely kill sound, only attenuate it enough not to matter any more. Think of this in terms of a bullet-proof vest - you get a "bullet-proof" vest, your enemy buys a 50 caliber sniper rifle - vest not quite bullet "proof" any more...
Anyway, some of the things we'll need to know in order to figure out how much isolation you need and can get -
From the wall your neighbor sees, through each layer to the surface of the wall that's on YOUR side, exactly what is there, layer by layer? (I know this may be a difficult question to answer, but do your best - maybe the building owner has plans, etc?)
this is only a guess on the current tenant's part, but there seems to be a thick layer between them and the other space. he guesses there is a layer of concrete that is covered by ply wood... when he knocks on it, he feels as though it is pretty dense...
Same question, only the floor -
Not sure yet
Do you already have a Sound Level Meter, such as the ones Radio Shack sells? If not, you should get one - they're about $40. You'll be taking some necessary measurements with this.
Don't have one but will go and buy one.
What are the EXACT dimensions of the inside of your room, including height? What is the ceiling made of? How solid does the floor feel when you jump on it?
Shoudl have diagrams of the rooms (there is a control room and a tracking room) within a couple days, and when the floor is jumped on it feels very solid.
What type of instruments will you record in the room? Electric guitar, bass, drums, kazoo, etc...
Bass, Drums, Guitar, Vocals, pretty much everything...
What is your budget for this project?
$10,000 (preferably less)
There are more things to sort out here, but I'm running late to bed so will have to continue later - please check into all the points above, and we'll see what happens. Odds are, you'll need to build a fully floated room if you intend to make large quantities of low frequency noise - otherwise, maybe not...
First off, a square room will have problems with several frequencies being supported by two of the dimensions (three, if the ceiling is ALSO 10 feet - please say it ISN'T...)
The ceiling is 8 foot and there is a small clost that protrudes from the wall a foot or two (I'm getting diagrams within a couple days)
If by "tracking" you really mean recording instruments in this room, and the control/mixing area is separate, then, depending on whether you actually intend to KEEP any of these recordings or not, you need to improve on the acoustics of the room. This has little to do with sound PROOFing, which I prefer to call sound ISOLATION due to the fact that you can NEVER completely kill sound, only attenuate it enough not to matter any more. Think of this in terms of a bullet-proof vest - you get a "bullet-proof" vest, your enemy buys a 50 caliber sniper rifle - vest not quite bullet "proof" any more...
Anyway, some of the things we'll need to know in order to figure out how much isolation you need and can get -
From the wall your neighbor sees, through each layer to the surface of the wall that's on YOUR side, exactly what is there, layer by layer? (I know this may be a difficult question to answer, but do your best - maybe the building owner has plans, etc?)
this is only a guess on the current tenant's part, but there seems to be a thick layer between them and the other space. he guesses there is a layer of concrete that is covered by ply wood... when he knocks on it, he feels as though it is pretty dense...
Same question, only the floor -
Not sure yet
Do you already have a Sound Level Meter, such as the ones Radio Shack sells? If not, you should get one - they're about $40. You'll be taking some necessary measurements with this.
Don't have one but will go and buy one.
What are the EXACT dimensions of the inside of your room, including height? What is the ceiling made of? How solid does the floor feel when you jump on it?
Shoudl have diagrams of the rooms (there is a control room and a tracking room) within a couple days, and when the floor is jumped on it feels very solid.
What type of instruments will you record in the room? Electric guitar, bass, drums, kazoo, etc...
Bass, Drums, Guitar, Vocals, pretty much everything...
What is your budget for this project?
$10,000 (preferably less)
There are more things to sort out here, but I'm running late to bed so will have to continue later - please check into all the points above, and we'll see what happens. Odds are, you'll need to build a fully floated room if you intend to make large quantities of low frequency noise - otherwise, maybe not...
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knightfly
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6976
- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
"One should be aware when one invests in a room, that one should be careful not to become too dependent on the goodwill of the neighbors" -
Thanks Eric, I see that I neglected to expound on that aspect - usually I mention more.
John, part of the use for the meter is real, and part is a "goodwill" ploy - if you're seen by the neighbor as trying to "do the right thing", it goes a long way toward good relations. Asking him/her first, then doing level checks before and after (documenting helps, so you can say "see, it's much quieter now", etc) never hurts.
The best thing that can happen is when you call your helper on the cell phone (from the neighbor's place) and ask if the music's on in the room and he says, "can't hear you, the music's at 110 dB"... Steve
Thanks Eric, I see that I neglected to expound on that aspect - usually I mention more.
John, part of the use for the meter is real, and part is a "goodwill" ploy - if you're seen by the neighbor as trying to "do the right thing", it goes a long way toward good relations. Asking him/her first, then doing level checks before and after (documenting helps, so you can say "see, it's much quieter now", etc) never hurts.
The best thing that can happen is when you call your helper on the cell phone (from the neighbor's place) and ask if the music's on in the room and he says, "can't hear you, the music's at 110 dB"... Steve
Soooo, when a Musician dies, do they hear the white noise at the end of the tunnel??!? Hmmmm...
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John Mayes
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 3:17 pm
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John Mayes
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 3:17 pm
ok..so after researching and doing a LOT LOT LOT of reading on this site as well as others (have to wade through some of the marketing crap) I THINK I know what I need to do...I still have a few questions though... first off I'll lay out what I plan on doing and you guys correct me where I'm wrong.
Ok so for the FLoor I plan on floating a 2x4 floor that would go-> Neoprene pads->2x4 joists with insulation between joists->1/2 MDF->1/4 plywood->3/4 toung and groove chipboard->vapor barrier ( heavy roofing paper)-> hardwood floor
And then the walls floated on top of the floor which would go somehting like this from the inside of the room out -> 5/8 gypsuim->1/4 particleboard, or MDF-> 1/2 gypsium-> Resiliant Channel (any good reccomendations on what to buy and where to get it?)->2x4 studs floated on neoprene screwed through down to hold in place on the floor with heavy insulation->3/8 gypsium->1/4 MDF or particle board-> 5/8 gypsium of course all taped and bedded and sealed like crazy....
So far so good at least I think...so here goes my questions...
The ceiling...what to do.. the studio is on the top floor of a building so there is no one above the room...do I need to drop a ceiling?..and if so would a flexible channel plus the sheetrock/mdf/sheetrock connected tot he FC be sufficeint. This is a small room and size is a precious commodity...
The other questions is the internal door. I'm planning on replacing the exterior door that leads tot he hallway of the studio with a solid core door very well sealed, but for the interior door... the door would ahve to be on top of the floated floor I assume beacause it would not have the room to open otherwise. What to do here and how to make it seamless into the exterior door. I think I know the answer here but if the planned exterior door was a heavy soild core very well sealed would I have to have a two door system to acheive very good STC? as long as there are no leaks then the sound that makes it through the solid door would make it into the hallway of our own studio and not be tooo big of a deal or does this cause a big problem?
One last question. AC. There are no windows in this room (actually glad about that) but we will need some vetelation. The studio is in New york so it is not super hot like it is here in my homesate of Oklahoma but air condition will be needed during the summer....radiant heaters can do the trick in winter I assume. We were planning on buying a window unit and venting it into the tracking room via mdf ductwork with 2-3 90 degree turns and the inside of the duct lined with some foam (knock off 1 inch auralex wedgies) around the 90 degree turns. Does this sound like a practical solution. If not..suggestions?
I appricate the advice in advance. Thanks a bundle...
Ok so for the FLoor I plan on floating a 2x4 floor that would go-> Neoprene pads->2x4 joists with insulation between joists->1/2 MDF->1/4 plywood->3/4 toung and groove chipboard->vapor barrier ( heavy roofing paper)-> hardwood floor
And then the walls floated on top of the floor which would go somehting like this from the inside of the room out -> 5/8 gypsuim->1/4 particleboard, or MDF-> 1/2 gypsium-> Resiliant Channel (any good reccomendations on what to buy and where to get it?)->2x4 studs floated on neoprene screwed through down to hold in place on the floor with heavy insulation->3/8 gypsium->1/4 MDF or particle board-> 5/8 gypsium of course all taped and bedded and sealed like crazy....
So far so good at least I think...so here goes my questions...
The ceiling...what to do.. the studio is on the top floor of a building so there is no one above the room...do I need to drop a ceiling?..and if so would a flexible channel plus the sheetrock/mdf/sheetrock connected tot he FC be sufficeint. This is a small room and size is a precious commodity...
The other questions is the internal door. I'm planning on replacing the exterior door that leads tot he hallway of the studio with a solid core door very well sealed, but for the interior door... the door would ahve to be on top of the floated floor I assume beacause it would not have the room to open otherwise. What to do here and how to make it seamless into the exterior door. I think I know the answer here but if the planned exterior door was a heavy soild core very well sealed would I have to have a two door system to acheive very good STC? as long as there are no leaks then the sound that makes it through the solid door would make it into the hallway of our own studio and not be tooo big of a deal or does this cause a big problem?
One last question. AC. There are no windows in this room (actually glad about that) but we will need some vetelation. The studio is in New york so it is not super hot like it is here in my homesate of Oklahoma but air condition will be needed during the summer....radiant heaters can do the trick in winter I assume. We were planning on buying a window unit and venting it into the tracking room via mdf ductwork with 2-3 90 degree turns and the inside of the duct lined with some foam (knock off 1 inch auralex wedgies) around the 90 degree turns. Does this sound like a practical solution. If not..suggestions?
I appricate the advice in advance. Thanks a bundle...
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John Mayes
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 3:17 pm
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John Mayes
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 3:17 pm
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laptoppop
- Posts: 82
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- Location: Southern California
Here's a couple of thoughts:
1) I think we need to know more about the wall that is there to be sure -- I don't understand the math, but I believe you need to be careful about multiple air pockets - they start interacting with each other and acting like springs -- transmitting the very sound you are trying to isolate.
2) The ceiling -- yah, that needs to be treated too. Otherwise, the sound will go right up through the ceiling and down into your neighbors area. Building a studio is kinda like building a boat -- any little leaks and the sound gets through. When we put up the special studio door in my place, the sound was reduced. When we tweaked the seals the additional reduction was amazing.
3) 10x10 is very tiny - barely enough to set up a drum kit. There are two aspects to studio design - sound isolation to and from the outside world, and sound treatment inside the space. Unfortunately, sound treatment inside the space can also take up room, and the smaller the room, the more you are likely to need! Where will the recording equipment be -- in a seperate control room? If not, this space may just flat be too small to record much more than a single singer or guitarist. You'll also have to contend with the sound generated by the equipment. My room is tiny, and I've been dealing with these kind of issues. (LaptopPop's studio in the studio under construction area)
4) I hope you've been looking at the "Recording Manual" site off of John's main page -- there is a TON of wonderful info there about sound treatment, etc.
-lee-
1) I think we need to know more about the wall that is there to be sure -- I don't understand the math, but I believe you need to be careful about multiple air pockets - they start interacting with each other and acting like springs -- transmitting the very sound you are trying to isolate.
2) The ceiling -- yah, that needs to be treated too. Otherwise, the sound will go right up through the ceiling and down into your neighbors area. Building a studio is kinda like building a boat -- any little leaks and the sound gets through. When we put up the special studio door in my place, the sound was reduced. When we tweaked the seals the additional reduction was amazing.
3) 10x10 is very tiny - barely enough to set up a drum kit. There are two aspects to studio design - sound isolation to and from the outside world, and sound treatment inside the space. Unfortunately, sound treatment inside the space can also take up room, and the smaller the room, the more you are likely to need! Where will the recording equipment be -- in a seperate control room? If not, this space may just flat be too small to record much more than a single singer or guitarist. You'll also have to contend with the sound generated by the equipment. My room is tiny, and I've been dealing with these kind of issues. (LaptopPop's studio in the studio under construction area)
4) I hope you've been looking at the "Recording Manual" site off of John's main page -- there is a TON of wonderful info there about sound treatment, etc.
-lee-
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John Mayes
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 3:17 pm
yes the conrol room will be separate. and yeah it is a tight fit but it is all we have to work with. Thakns for the thoughts... I'm afraid there may be no real way to know what the existing walls are made of short of knocking a hol in them and seeing..and I'm not so sure we can do that... but hey I guess I can always patch it up..then again I won't be able to do that until I'm there and when that happens then I'm too late for the planning stage.
I was curious if the lag screws through the base of the walls into the flor would be a good idea or will that act as a bridge between the too..then agian what other way is there to keep the walls standing...
Thanks for the thoughts...keep em coming...let me know what you guys would do in my shoes if you would...thanksl!
I was curious if the lag screws through the base of the walls into the flor would be a good idea or will that act as a bridge between the too..then agian what other way is there to keep the walls standing...
Thanks for the thoughts...keep em coming...let me know what you guys would do in my shoes if you would...thanksl!
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knightfly
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6976
- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
John, I've not forgotten you but I need sleep before I can be of much use - my schedule runs something like this: 4 12-hour days of hell followed by 4 days of trying to catch up, then repeat...
Just a few quick points, then I'll grab a few hours of quality time with a soft pillow -
First, if you're using wood studs you'll want to have the wallboard layers that are against the stud (or channel) be 5/8, because subsequent layers should be LAMINATED to inner layers with Type G laminating screws and NOT fastened to wood studs. Only the first layer should be screwed directly to studs, or you get flanking paths which can cut performance by as much as 9-10 dB. The dissimilar layers is good, as is different total mass of layers between inner and outer leaf of a wall. I'd lose the "roofing paper" in the floor though, if it's the tar paper thing it won't likely meet fire code for commercial, and rightly so.
Lags into floor to hold the wall - I'd use lighter screws, not all the way thru all layers, and only a minimal number. If you use acoustic sealant to bed the walls that will help hold them, as well as gravity. You should check with local building codes tho, NYC has their own from what I hear.
Drop ceiling/flex channel, etc, will be necessary - sound finds the easiest way in/out so the entire room has to be good.
Doors - definitely double doors, and solid core. If you want to be able to set mics by listening to the speakers, the less leakage the better. Each door should be in a separate wall frame if possible, unless your wall construction can't accomodate it.
AC - I've been looking for ways to get more up to speed on this aspect, but it's a pretty closed community from what I've seen so far. One thing - "window unit and venting it into the tracking room " - you realize that the vent from a window AC is HOT air, right?
What some people are doing is getting what's called a "mini-split" - several companies make them, they're just a miniature version of an outside AC unit with inside heat exchanger. Some are pretty quiet, but I don't have make/model #'s yet. You would still need an area for the hot air to go.
The convoluted duct thing works, as does flex duct (although flex duct needs to be installed carefully so it doesn't flatten and restrict air flow, from what I'm told)
Falling asleep, gotta go for now... Steve
Just a few quick points, then I'll grab a few hours of quality time with a soft pillow -
First, if you're using wood studs you'll want to have the wallboard layers that are against the stud (or channel) be 5/8, because subsequent layers should be LAMINATED to inner layers with Type G laminating screws and NOT fastened to wood studs. Only the first layer should be screwed directly to studs, or you get flanking paths which can cut performance by as much as 9-10 dB. The dissimilar layers is good, as is different total mass of layers between inner and outer leaf of a wall. I'd lose the "roofing paper" in the floor though, if it's the tar paper thing it won't likely meet fire code for commercial, and rightly so.
Lags into floor to hold the wall - I'd use lighter screws, not all the way thru all layers, and only a minimal number. If you use acoustic sealant to bed the walls that will help hold them, as well as gravity. You should check with local building codes tho, NYC has their own from what I hear.
Drop ceiling/flex channel, etc, will be necessary - sound finds the easiest way in/out so the entire room has to be good.
Doors - definitely double doors, and solid core. If you want to be able to set mics by listening to the speakers, the less leakage the better. Each door should be in a separate wall frame if possible, unless your wall construction can't accomodate it.
AC - I've been looking for ways to get more up to speed on this aspect, but it's a pretty closed community from what I've seen so far. One thing - "window unit and venting it into the tracking room " - you realize that the vent from a window AC is HOT air, right?
What some people are doing is getting what's called a "mini-split" - several companies make them, they're just a miniature version of an outside AC unit with inside heat exchanger. Some are pretty quiet, but I don't have make/model #'s yet. You would still need an area for the hot air to go.
The convoluted duct thing works, as does flex duct (although flex duct needs to be installed carefully so it doesn't flatten and restrict air flow, from what I'm told)
Falling asleep, gotta go for now... Steve
Soooo, when a Musician dies, do they hear the white noise at the end of the tunnel??!? Hmmmm...
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John Mayes
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 3:17 pm
knightfly wrote:John, I've not forgotten you but I need sleep before I can be of much use - my schedule runs something like this: 4 12-hour days of hell followed by 4 days of trying to catch up, then repeat...
Just a few quick points, then I'll grab a few hours of quality time with a soft pillow -
First, if you're using wood studs you'll want to have the wallboard layers that are against the stud (or channel) be 5/8, because subsequent layers should be LAMINATED to inner layers with Type G laminating screws and NOT fastened to wood studs. Only the first layer should be screwed directly to studs, or you get flanking paths which can cut performance by as much as 9-10 dB. The dissimilar layers is good, as is different total mass of layers between inner and outer leaf of a wall. I'd lose the "roofing paper" in the floor though, if it's the tar paper thing it won't likely meet fire code for commercial, and rightly so.
Lags into floor to hold the wall - I'd use lighter screws, not all the way thru all layers, and only a minimal number. If you use acoustic sealant to bed the walls that will help hold them, as well as gravity. You should check with local building codes tho, NYC has their own from what I hear.
Drop ceiling/flex channel, etc, will be necessary - sound finds the easiest way in/out so the entire room has to be good.
Doors - definitely double doors, and solid core. If you want to be able to set mics by listening to the speakers, the less leakage the better. Each door should be in a separate wall frame if possible, unless your wall construction can't accomodate it.
AC - I've been looking for ways to get more up to speed on this aspect, but it's a pretty closed community from what I've seen so far. One thing - "window unit and venting it into the tracking room " - you realize that the vent from a window AC is HOT air, right?
What some people are doing is getting what's called a "mini-split" - several companies make them, they're just a miniature version of an outside AC unit with inside heat exchanger. Some are pretty quiet, but I don't have make/model #'s yet. You would still need an area for the hot air to go.
The convoluted duct thing works, as does flex duct (although flex duct needs to be installed carefully so it doesn't flatten and restrict air flow, from what I'm told)
Falling asleep, gotta go for now... Steve
Thanks for thr tips steve..I'll look forward to more when your able to.
As for the ceiling...would a flexible channel (rc8) with 5/8 sheetrock->1/4 MDF->3/8 sheetrock be sufficient.. I know it is not as much as the other parts of the room, but then again I assuming that the roof is MUCH more heavy duty than the walls and since we will be on the top floor.....
Double doors...I figured as much and that is perfectly fine I budgeted for double colid core doors... but like before how would I pull it off with the two doors being on different levels and still makeing everything sealed nice and good.
AC Yeah I gotcha on the vent but I meant that where the cold air blows out vent them into the room and let the control room take the brunt of the noise as it will be used for mixing and when they are mixing there should not be anyone tracking so noise should not be a factor then...plus if they left it on low constantly..
I'll loose the roofing paper...I was just thinking of some kind of vapor barrier...or should this be nessacary?
Here is a idea for the lag screws... instead of just screeing them doen what about drilling a slightly oversized hole for what the screw is and then using the washers that have the rubber padding on them so that the only real connection between the floor and the walls would be neoprene under the wall and rubber bottom washer.. would that help at all or would it not make much of a difference?
More info on the Mini spilt would be cool...if you got it..
I know this is a lot to bombard you with but I REALLY appriecate it...
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knightfly
- Senior Member
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- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
Got a little zzz-time, lets see what happens -
"As for the ceiling...would a flexible channel (rc8) with 5/8 sheetrock->1/4 MDF->3/8 sheetrock be sufficient" -
possibly, but an outer layer of 1/2" would be better, and thin panels are kind of tough to put up horizontally on a ceiling - by using the RC-8 you can stick with Type S screws of increasing length for successive layers, just avoid putting screws where the RC crosses ceiling joists or you will "short out" the channel and negate any isolation gains the RC gives. For many of your questions, this thread is the closest to a FAQ I've gotten to so far -
http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=598
"Double doors...I figured as much and that is perfectly fine I budgeted for double colid core doors... but like before how would I pull it off with the two doors being on different levels and still makeing everything sealed nice and good." -
Standard doors are 6'8" tall - if your floors are different in height by 6", as long as you're less than 6'2", you should be fine. You can mount a pre-hung exterior solid core door on the main floor that opens out, and a second one on the floated floor that open IN, each in its own separate wall frame (also mounted on the same surfaces) and get the best performance possible in a relatively small thickness. Each door would be sealed all the way around, including a drop threshhold if you're serious about isolation. Here's one example -
http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/prod ... l_kits.asp
"Here is a idea for the lag screws... instead of just screeing them doen what about drilling a slightly oversized hole for what the screw is and then using the washers that have the rubber padding on them so that the only real connection between the floor and the walls would be neoprene under the wall and rubber bottom washer.. would that help at all or would it not make much of a difference?" -
I'm not sure, but I think that would make almost no difference at all. According to tests I've seen, the main reason through-fasteners decrease isolation is because the metal conducts sound through the panels and into the member being fastened to. Leaving a gap around the fastener doesn't change the fact that the fastener still violates the layers and still has a portion that is in contact with sound.
This is why USG recommends LAMINATING successive layers instead of screwing direct to studs, when you're using Wood studs. Steel studs can be done either way, probably better to laminate, and successive layers attached to RC can just be screwed through with longera screws for each successive layer, offsetting joints in both directions and offsetting screws, being careful NOT to put any screws where studs are other than the screws that fasten the RC to the studs themselves. The reason this works for RC and not studs, is that the RC isolates the flanked noise that gets through the screws, from the studs themselves.
The good news is, fastening a floated wall to its floated floor only partially violates ONE of the two leaves of your sound isolation - as long as you don't get too carried away with the number of fasteners, sticking to minimum fastener schedules, it should work fine.
"I'll loose the roofing paper...I was just thinking of some kind of vapor barrier...or should this be nessacary?" -
Shouldn't be necessary unless your floated floor is on concrete that is in contact with the ground.
AC - here's a link to friedrich unit that's plenty big for a 100 sf room, which is good because you can run it at its lowest speed and still get good cooling - its sound output at lowest speed is only 32 dBa, which is pretty quiet - some computers make more noise than that.
https://www.brandairconditioners.com/cg ... M09CE.html
another link to Mitsubishi, for some general info -
http://www.mini-split.com/
As to drawings, I'm behind on several so it may take a while - basically, you need to find out as much as you can about existing construction - then, likely you'll end up using the existing walls/ceilings/floors as the outer "leaf" of soundproof walls, except where there will be "new" walls in which case you'll build double-framed, floated floor construction - this sounds pretty vague even to me, so I'll see how soon I can get drawings finished even if they're just basic concepts... Steve
"As for the ceiling...would a flexible channel (rc8) with 5/8 sheetrock->1/4 MDF->3/8 sheetrock be sufficient" -
possibly, but an outer layer of 1/2" would be better, and thin panels are kind of tough to put up horizontally on a ceiling - by using the RC-8 you can stick with Type S screws of increasing length for successive layers, just avoid putting screws where the RC crosses ceiling joists or you will "short out" the channel and negate any isolation gains the RC gives. For many of your questions, this thread is the closest to a FAQ I've gotten to so far -
http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=598
"Double doors...I figured as much and that is perfectly fine I budgeted for double colid core doors... but like before how would I pull it off with the two doors being on different levels and still makeing everything sealed nice and good." -
Standard doors are 6'8" tall - if your floors are different in height by 6", as long as you're less than 6'2", you should be fine. You can mount a pre-hung exterior solid core door on the main floor that opens out, and a second one on the floated floor that open IN, each in its own separate wall frame (also mounted on the same surfaces) and get the best performance possible in a relatively small thickness. Each door would be sealed all the way around, including a drop threshhold if you're serious about isolation. Here's one example -
http://www.acousticalsolutions.com/prod ... l_kits.asp
"Here is a idea for the lag screws... instead of just screeing them doen what about drilling a slightly oversized hole for what the screw is and then using the washers that have the rubber padding on them so that the only real connection between the floor and the walls would be neoprene under the wall and rubber bottom washer.. would that help at all or would it not make much of a difference?" -
I'm not sure, but I think that would make almost no difference at all. According to tests I've seen, the main reason through-fasteners decrease isolation is because the metal conducts sound through the panels and into the member being fastened to. Leaving a gap around the fastener doesn't change the fact that the fastener still violates the layers and still has a portion that is in contact with sound.
This is why USG recommends LAMINATING successive layers instead of screwing direct to studs, when you're using Wood studs. Steel studs can be done either way, probably better to laminate, and successive layers attached to RC can just be screwed through with longera screws for each successive layer, offsetting joints in both directions and offsetting screws, being careful NOT to put any screws where studs are other than the screws that fasten the RC to the studs themselves. The reason this works for RC and not studs, is that the RC isolates the flanked noise that gets through the screws, from the studs themselves.
The good news is, fastening a floated wall to its floated floor only partially violates ONE of the two leaves of your sound isolation - as long as you don't get too carried away with the number of fasteners, sticking to minimum fastener schedules, it should work fine.
"I'll loose the roofing paper...I was just thinking of some kind of vapor barrier...or should this be nessacary?" -
Shouldn't be necessary unless your floated floor is on concrete that is in contact with the ground.
AC - here's a link to friedrich unit that's plenty big for a 100 sf room, which is good because you can run it at its lowest speed and still get good cooling - its sound output at lowest speed is only 32 dBa, which is pretty quiet - some computers make more noise than that.
https://www.brandairconditioners.com/cg ... M09CE.html
another link to Mitsubishi, for some general info -
http://www.mini-split.com/
As to drawings, I'm behind on several so it may take a while - basically, you need to find out as much as you can about existing construction - then, likely you'll end up using the existing walls/ceilings/floors as the outer "leaf" of soundproof walls, except where there will be "new" walls in which case you'll build double-framed, floated floor construction - this sounds pretty vague even to me, so I'll see how soon I can get drawings finished even if they're just basic concepts... Steve
Soooo, when a Musician dies, do they hear the white noise at the end of the tunnel??!? Hmmmm...
-
John Mayes
- Posts: 15
- Joined: Fri Aug 22, 2003 3:17 pm