John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

Ok,,,This probably is a real dumb question, but I have been reading threads on here, and after meeting with my Engineer today I have a couple questions.

My engineer also works for an installation company who designs and wires studios. He looked at what I was out to accomplish today when he visited, and told me that when it comes time to wire the Studio, he will come in and do it, but be prepared to spend a couple grand to get it done right. Also he said doing it right makes ALL the difference in the world.

I can buy that theory,,,but my questions are:

1 - Why not just buy a decent brand 24Ch Audio snake and run that from the tracking room into the control room to the console? (seems like it would be a whole lot cheaper and easier and accomplish the same task)

2 - How does one breech the wall in the tracking room (after going to great lenths to make sure its totally sealed) and run whichever wire you decide to use. A hole in the wall is a hole in the wall,,,right?? I assume you caulk the heck out of it, but is that enough? Since I will be using 2 seperate boards in the CR with 2 different snakes (because I will also have bands practice there, so thats the set up I currently have) wouldnt that mean I would need to breech the walls somewhere along the line to bring these snakes/wires into the CR?

Has anyone come up with a proven cool way to do this, and still keep the noise isolated?? (and I have read several of the posts on here, but havent found the answer yet,,,but I will still look awhile)

Or,,,,do I just shell out thousands of dollars, and just have these guys do the job? (I still dont know why just using a snake wouldnt work instead of all the single wires ran in conduit etc etc>??)

Thanks
AJ

FWIW: We use a ProCo 24 channel snake that (get this) runs from the control room OUTSIDE, then comes back into the tracking areas....same with electrical connections, which are all run with conduit...there is only one access point for each.

(This was done because at one time, the tracking area and control room were two separate buildings, 4 feet apart...the two have been built together so now there is one building)

I've built up a small box to protect the snake and electrical conduit from the elements...works very well for what we need...one thing to consider though: all of our electrical conduit is connected, as the conduit itself is the main grounding for the facility...we noticed some strange things happening where the conduit entered the control room, and found that it was actually transmitting sound...(weird)...anyway, we cut away 4 inches of conduit to break the sonic tube, then re-connected the grounds using plain heavy copper wire..that eliminated the acoustic connection while maintaining a single ground pint for the entire facility...

Works very well for us.

I was wondering is somethign like this would work, and at the same time keep the sound isolation you aquired when you built the room(s).

Its basically running the snake into a box in the tracking room thats insulated, then thru the wall, down the air space betweer the walls to seperate the 2 box locations and also create 90 angles, then thru the other wall and into another insulated box, then out into control room.

Would this concept work? I dont want to spend the money of several sheets of drywall and all the Green Glue, just to mess it all up with a hole I shouldnt have drilled for wiring. (but I guess you have to get the audio and electrical wires into the tracking room somehow>?>?>?

Anyone have any input or experience??

Everyone have a Merry Christmas and a great Holiday Season!!

Thanks
AJ

Hello AJ,

First off, the obvious was to install the conduits prior to closing in the walls. But it doesn't sound like these accomodations were made.

Question: Do you have access between those 2 walls? If so, you can run the PVC conduit (or just run the cable). You probably don't need that many 90 turns. Just 2 should do the trick. If you need to decouple from room to room, leave a break in the conduit somewhere, just be sure it's supported well.

After pulling your cables, you can stuff some insulation into each end of the conduit to reduce sound from traveling, plus you'll have boxes on each side, so that will help as well.

Do you have pictures or a link to your thread here on the studio?


Now in terms of "doing it right", it is expensive, but not as expensive as doing it wrong and having to do something over again. What is your guys idea of "right"?

What type of consoles are you wiring up to? Are you wiring to patchbays or ??? What is your wiring plan?

Are you using Mogami or another wire? Are you just wiring mic connections or are you wiring a cue system, and other options?

Aaronw wrote:Hello AJ,

First off, the obvious was to install the conduits prior to closing in the walls. But it doesn't sound like these accomodations were made.

Question: Do you have access between those 2 walls?

As far as the accomodations, the options are all still wide open. I stopped the building process of my Studio until Spring, due to the freezing temps and the concrete that will be used for the pad etc, so I have yet to build/frame the walls. I still can build and install/run wiring as needed, and this is only the planning stages for me and my studio project, which is projected to be re-kicked off again in April 2007.

My question/concern was, if I already own a couple decent brand audio snakes, that are obviously pre-wired and ready to go, why cant I just use them to get your signal from the tracking room to the control room? I would consider hard wiring instead, and just selling those snakes, but the last engineer told me to expect to spend a couple grand in materials alone to wire my studio and do it right.

I just went and priced custom XLR & 1/4" wall plates, snake wire, conduit and XLR and 1/4" connectors to wire up every scenerio I could imagine in my to-be studio and it wasnt near "a couple grand" in materials. So I guess I am just trying to figure this all out.

What I would like to do is the following:

First, I would like to have 24 channels wired into the control room from the tracking room, going into my Mackie D8B for recording.

Then I'd like to run a seperate 8 channels from the tracking room up to my 2nd floor Loft area where I will have my Digi 001 and Pro Tools set up. (I am still new to Pro Tools, so thats still in the learning stages and its not my primary recording scenerio,,,,,yet)

Also I would like a pair of 1/4" wall plates wired from Control Room to the 2nd floor to run headphone sends/mixes if I choose to the 2nd floor.

Next,,,and this one will seem weird ,,,,But since I will be also using the tracking room for live band practices/rehersals, I wanted to run a seperate 24 channel snake from tracking room to control room and into my Mackie 24X8 console as well (I use this console for live band practices, and like to have the 2 seperate systems wired and ready to go so dont have to re-wire etc between band practices and recording ventures etc. I also already have all the equipment, and have been doing it this way for about 2 years now, so I am used to it. Plus, its much easier to send an unfamiliar musician, from my band, in to adjust a fader or a EQ knob on a 24X8 then it is a D8B.

So,,,thats what I am after. The control room will have 2 wired consoles in it, and upstairs will have a computer wired with a Digi 001 and Pro Tools ,,,,then (and this dosent need any prewiring) but I also have a 2nd computer with Pro Tools and an M-Box hooked up to it that will also be upstairs. (I know, it seems like alot of duplication here, but its what I am used to for now, and I havent got on ebay yet to sell some stuff like I should.)

I already own 2 - 24 channel audio snakes, and 1 - 8 ch audio snake, but if instead me hard wiring wall plates would be a better solution, I am still open to to that. I want to do whats best, and what sounds best in the end, but I dont have a billion extra dollars laying around if I can make due with what I already have.

I hope what I wrote isnt toooo confusing. Let me know what you think.

Thanks
AJ

Aye! Good, you haven't built the walls yet. I thought you already had. Didn't know you were in another planning stage to rebuild.

In that case, you can do just about anything. OK, first question then...are you solder savvy? Can you do the wiring, or do you need to hire this other guy to do it? If you can do it, you'll save a couple grand in labor. The parts in general really are not that much. But you will spend about $1k in materials for good stuff. That includes cables, connectors and plates.

24 pair mogami here in Nashville runs about $6.44 a foot. Be sure to measure a couple times and always give yourself a few feet extra for service slack, etc. They haven't invented a good wire stretcher yet...


The first thing to do is sit down and write up a list as well as a layout of what you want going to each room. Then this will help you decide your conduit layouts and sizes, etc.

Will you be using patchbays for your cabling? Or are you open to those suggestions of using them? You want the most flexibility you can, and if you have every wire coming up to them, you can route them anywhere.

Have you seen my conduit runs...? http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... &start=148

Aaronw,

Very cool pics of your conduit runs. This brings me to another quick question, should I maybe be considering laying down some 3" or 4" PVC pipe thats actually IN the concrete pad that will run from the control room to the back of the tracking room instead of running the snakes through the wall void spaces? Would that be better for the sound isolation, and less flanking having the audio wire in the pipe(s) and IN the cement instead?

Here (below) is the stage I am at now. So its decision time for some things I guess (before the pad is poured) or should I just stick to running everything between the walls and above ground?

It will be a 4" thick pad at this point. (maybe I should make it 5" if I do run things in the pad)

I am also going to follow your other advice awhile and get the list started.

Thanks again
AJ

This brings me to another quick question, should I maybe be considering laying down some 3" or 4" PVC pipe thats actually IN the concrete pad that will run from the control room to the back of the tracking room instead of running the snakes through the wall void spaces? Would that be better for the sound isolation, and less flanking having the audio wire in the pipe(s) and IN the cement instead?

That is a possibility. Another option would be to make troughs in your pad.

Do you have a plan drawn up for your current building plans? Maybe a link to them?

Will you have some kind of machine room, or something similar?

Here is a link to the other thread with my tentative plans. Keep in mind, they have changed quite a bit since first started. This site has been an amazing help.

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 24&start=0


I dont have any plans for a machine room per say. All my HVAC equipment will be up in the loft of my existing garage (and also outside as well) and then ducted over into the new Studio area(s), and the computers (towers) will be located upstairs and away from the control room and tracking room areas.

When this Studio is all done, it wont be designed to be a "money making commercial type" studio, but instead I want it to just be a Home/Project Studio (on steriods,,,meaning, I am going a little further then probably the normal home studio. But its still just a hobby and a place for my musician friends to come use and have fun. I am not sure where one draws the line in the differences between levels of Studios, but I dont have the floating floors, Multiple Iso booths, Nuemann Mics, Neve Console etc, etc but will be going as far as the room in a room construction, the multiply layers of drywall, and multiple layers of OSB on the exterior, and the expense of the green glued walls etc etc along with the constant (as I can afford) upgrades to my equipment as I go.

I guess is that my console best describes what I am going to end up with for now...My studio will be a Mackie Quality "level" studio. Obviously much better then a Behringer level studio, but certainly not close to a Neve level studio. And my budget has to stay as such for now. If it expands into something greater later on, then that would be awsome. As for now, I need to do as much as I can with the budget I have to work with (about 25K) .

I'll go the extra mile if its going to make a big difference, but if I can do it less expensive, then I am open to all options. Thats what brought me to ask about all this wiring and the "how to's" or "what my needs will be".

Aaron, I appreciate all your input thus far and hope it continues. I am learning more with every post of yours I read.

Thanks again
AJ

AJ,

As soon as you have a drawing or something showing the rooms and what cables/connections you want where, we'll get you a design layed out.

Here's a patchbay layout that was connected to the Mackie I just pulled out of service in my room.

Aaron,

Well if you just pulled that patchbay "out of service" from a Mackie,,,and a Mackie is what I am using,,,,wanna sell the patchbay setup?? (anything to make things easier...lol)

To try to answer your question, what exactly in a drawing would you need?? I have tried to draw on the existing floor plans, what I want and where, but when I am done, it looks crazy (colored lines everywhere) I am no designer. lol Could we start the plans based off of what I would like to do described in text,,,plus I will post some floorplans of what I will be doing, and try to put the 2 together maybe??

If so, below are 2 drawings of the floor plans to start with, and above is basically what I am after as far as the audio wiring needed from the tracking room into the control room and loft (2nd floor area) which is directly over the control room an dthe same size as the CR.

Let me know if this helps and thanks as always.
AJ

Hi AJ.

Well if you just pulled that patchbay "out of service" from a Mackie,,,and a Mackie is what I am using,,,,wanna sell the patchbay setup?? (anything to make things easier...lol)

Unfortunately, it's not mine to sell. And it's installed inside of a custom Oak frame that houses a 24x8 + 24 expander.

I guess the main things I need, would be what I/O you require to each room. eg: How many mic lines to each room. How many cue sends. Etc.
And what ever else you may need. And with wiring, you may even give yourself an extra conduit for the "Oh S**T, I forgot about that!" factor. There's always cables to be added it seems, after the fact. Or a change in equipment setups a couple years down the road. Plan ahead for anything you might "think" could change. It's easier now, than later (and cheaper).

Aaron is a man who loves his conduit -- almost as much as he loves his new console!

--Keith

It's one heck of an easier way to pull cables around the studio once your walls are up!!!

Sorry, I'm deep in the bowels of this 2" machine right now. It's got issues! #&%$!!!!!