John Sayers' Recording Studio Design Forum Archive

Hello,

I have been posting some different threads these days, asking about right products/solutions to find, in order to get long lasting installation in a flood area. (which is supposed to cause big damages, even if the flood isn't so big).

I think that it may help much more people to resume all advices in a single thread, than different ones, so here i go with my own example:

The building that i intend to use as for a recording studio, is a 150 m2 building, built mainly on basement floor, but with an inner part 'digged' lower 1m in the earth, below that basement level. It has got humidity inside as it is now, because it is also mainly recovered by earth, in a way that the building isn't seen from the outside, except for the main entrance.

It is near the river, which grows each winter, and sometimes growing enough to reach that building, even if it never happened yet, if i believe previous owner word.With climat disturbing that we all know, no one could swear it would never happen.
So i have to prepare myself to that eventuality, as i wouldn't want to rebuild everything from the beginning, or- worse- being in a risk area for myself and my family, with suspended tile ceiling, heavy walls, etc...

I know some of you may have experienced that kind of damages, in a way much more dramatic- i think about Katrina floods, for example.

-----------

I recently posted here asking about the right materials requested for wall isolation, in a recording studio:


1) Gypsum boards replacement,
2) Mineral wool replacement/management...

[There is also the pb of adapted ventilation in case of water caught in walls, electricity pbs, suspended ceiling becoming dangerous as wet, bacterias to eliminate after a flood, putting audio equipment away, for several days, and so on...]

>>> 1) I thought about using cement board in replacement of gypsum, as even dedicated gypsum boards made water resistant shouldn't be resistant enough if put in water for several days.i found a product called 'Aquapanel' http://www.aquapanel.com/index.php?lang ... w=interior
I wondered about the acoustic consequences of cement in a room in place of gypsum, while the main comments about it were focused on the price (expensive), and the difficulty to install.

>>> 2) Behind cement boards, mineral wool doesn't seem to have any replacement solutions, if one wants to keep the same acoustic effectiveness.
So i thought about sealing mineral boards with plastic bags, but Sharward here considered sealing as a downside, as mineral wool would need to 'breathe', plus not being trapped in a vapored bag.

-Ventilation there would also be a big deal, as it may help moisture/humidity kept in walls, to be ventilated right away.

Ok, now that i got resumed all this...any other suggestions, any compared experience?

Here's an attachement of my building layout:

This is a great introduction to what I hope will be a great thread full of great information for this very important topic.

I hesitate to write too much because of how important it is, and I don't want to make a mistake that could cause confusion. You did a nice job summarizing what we've already discussed in your other thread.

I'll send a message to Rod -- perhaps he has a thing or two to share.

It's interesting that this comes up again, because this weekend, my aunt and uncle sustained a major water intrusion incident in their condominium up here. I believe a washing machine hose burst and flooded their entire lower level. They were home (asleep) when it happened, so they were able to take some steps to minimize the damage... But all their carpeting and hardwood floors are ruined (already removed) and they now face working with their insurance company to restore the place. It brings back some pretty bad memories of three years ago when a similar incident took place at our house, flooding us out and forcing us to live in a hotel for three weeks while reconstruction took place.

I'm looking forward to seeing this thread come together. Thanks for starting it.

--Keith

Well Sharward, i am happy that you want to participate to that thread as you seem to do! I also prefered to start it, after getting some advices given by you and others, in a way to give a general and clear direction to it.

Now i hope a lot of guys around would join to the thread, and help us growing interest.

Hi there Nightmusic....now that is going to be a very interesting thread since lots of studios are build in basements(like mine) and moisture does live in the basements
As i can see(and as you mentioned) we have the same problems more or less and our basements look alike...so i think we could help each other
In my basement moisture(well water actually ) comes through the concrete walls...there's no river near by but when it rains things become quite floody....so here is my thought:
i'm planning to "beef up" the outter concrete walls with cement boards(like the aquapanel you've mentioned) and seal all their joints with caulk.
I don't want to create a another leaf so i think i shouldn't put studs but just stick the boards on concrete with the use of adhesive mud...as you said cement boards have very good waterproofing so i think this would work. In generall i think the best way is to keep the water out once and for all prior to studio building...what do you think of this?

Cement boards (such as Durock, Wonderboard, etc.) are not waterproofing products.

Understand that they are moisture-tolerant in that they will not break down if they get wet.

They will not prevent moisture from wicking through them.

There are also very specific procedures for mounting them that include the use of special screws.

Please review Andy_Eade's project. He's active on a basement studio project that is (for educational purposesu) the best of both worlds: a previous homeowner made some terrible mistakes in a prior basement conversion that led to moisture intrusion and, subsequently, wood-destroying pests (termites). After an extensive and exhausting clean-up, he had a specialty contractor install a perimeter drain system with a sump pump.

There's a science to basement waterproofing, and, fortunately a lot of Web sites that offer good information on the subject.

Although they share one thing in common (water), this thread is about two concepts: building in flood risk areas, and building in basements. Some projects are "double whammys" in that they are in basements located in flood risk areas!

In both cases, "staying dry" is key. In the case of flood, then building with flood tolerant materials may be helpful. For example, one might rest easier by not installing any wood-based flooring, opting instead to go with ceramic tile, stained concrete, or some other moisture tolerant surface. As for walls, probably the best bet would be concrete blocks, and if you really want to go overboard (no pun intended! ), water-tight conduits througout, at least in the walls (not necessarily the ceiling if not especially low-lying).

This does not mean your studio would become a submarine... ...Damage in a flood is a certainty... But it would promise to make clean-up in the aftermath less daunting. The question is: how much more expensive/difficult would it be, and how much easier would recovery be, and is that outcome really worth the cost? Case-by-case...

--Keith

Thanks for the info Keith ...i think i got it!!
Well a flood in the way you (and Nightmusic) are describing it is not my case....my problem comes from little holes and cracks in the concrete walls.....i'll try to post a pic to show you what i mean. My thought was first to try and seal these cracks with some caulk or cement and then add a cement board.....what if i add some material like an asphalt sheet or something between the cement board and the concrete....would that do any good?
And of course if some special srewing is needed for this....then this will be done....what i wanted to say is that i don't want to leave air space between the board and the wall....and after all if everybody thinks that this is not a good idea...then i won't do it
so please let me know what you think

Nikodemos,

The reason why i intend to use aquapanels for my isolation walls, is that i just need a gypsumboards water-resistant replacement, as a Mass-Air-Mass part system.
Your problem is quite different of that one-I don't say 'of mine', because beyond gypsumboards replacement, i think i got the exact same problem as yours, on original concrete wall: When rain comes, water drips slightly along the concrete, and finally you got water down the floor.

I intend to use a cementitious waterproofing product to fix that pb.This is that kind of product they use to waterproof swimming pool. go to see there http://www.safeguardeurope.com/applicat ... _pools.php

But if you just have only moist pb, and not too much water dripping, you can use another product called 'Aquastop' http://www.aquasealusa.com/basement-pro ... QgodUSh-Dg

I am sure one of these will be your solution!

Sharward wrote:

Cement boards (such as Durock, Wonderboard, etc.) are not waterproofing products.
Understand that they are moisture-tolerant in that they will not break down if they get wet.

I'm ok with that.I just need gypsumboards replacement, which won't break in 2 when water comes there.Everything would have to be clean up and dried anyway, after a flood have passed.
The only pb that i still didn't manage, is about the rockwool isolation... as it seems that my sealing-bag idea isn't so adapted, and that the idea of decoupling the isolation at a certain height (flooded part/non flooded upper part) seemed not to be fire resistant>>>I am stuck there.Any further idea?

if you really want to go overboard (no pun intended! Wink), water-tight conduits througout, at least in the walls (not necessarily the ceiling if not especially low-lying).

Sorry Keith, i don't think i catch the meaning of 'water-tight conduits'.I see what it means, but what for would that have to be installed exactly?

thanx for the info man....i'm checking them right now
On the "water resistant" frontier..i foumd on the Knauf website that there are water resistant gypsum boards...i don't know how resistant they are but you should check them....
I think you should try to find some other insulation material instead of mineral wool for the walls if you're pretty sure that water will be in there someday
I mean there is probably some kind of synthetic material that could fit your needs and stay dry!!
Please take a look in my design thread...i think we could excange ideas in there too
N

The gypsum boards designed for use in wet areas, such as bathrooms, are not so water-tolerat that they'd be able to soak in submerged water for days...

Like I said, fire-resistant concrete block construction may be the solution because it can withstand being submerged.

I think it's probably exempt from the fireblocking requirements that code definitely calls for in other types of construction.

"Water-tight conduits" are plastic conduits, often flexible like a hose, with special compression fittings that feature rubber gaskets, suitable for outdoor and underground use.

--Keith

Sharward wrote:

The gypsum boards designed for use in wet areas, such as bathrooms, are not so water-tolerat that they'd be able to soak in submerged water for days

Exactly.They belong to what they call 'EB Classification'.
I know that Aquapanelboards are better resistant, as they belong to the last 'classification EC'.They also distinguished in 'Bad Schandau hydrotherapy center' in Germany, which was totaly flooded, and damaged up to the ceiling.It seems that after flood has gone, these were the only walls that stayed as they were before.

Like I said, fire-resistant concrete block construction may be the solution because it can withstand being submerged

Of course, you totally right caus these aquapanel boards will never be as resistant as concrete blocks !!!
But here,2 things have to be considered:
1) Being able to remove these boards, after flood has passed, if further ventilation/rockwool changing are required.With concrete blocks, no way to remove it (unless i fix them to the wall with screws?????mmh... why not?) !
2) Not to loose too much space inside the final room.

Anyway, i do not intend to put any water resistant cement-based material up to the ceiling, as it may become very expensive/hard to install.
My idea is still to stop that cement addon at a certain height, but i still have to found the trick to decouple with upper parts (which would be made with regular gypsum boards), in a way that water/humidity would stop at that height.
I am going to attach a layout of this conception, that may help to figure out.

Sorry Keith maybe i am blind... but i still can't see what kind of use would these 'water tight conduits' would help in that situation

Nikodemos wrote:

I think you should try to find some other insulation material instead of mineral wool

The thing is that the only isolation material that i know that could be better water resistant is polyurethan boards (the ones that they use in house isolations), but everybody here knows how much that would lead to an acoustic disaster... I ask anybody help for that question !

I will also post to your thread asap, as i know i have the same question as yours about 2 leaf system, floor decoupling, and so on...I have also some other options for your floating floor, better than mineral wool.
I feel that the way you consider your project is about the same as mine, because you seem to be very patient , or able to add money required, when you consider that a thing has to be done in the right way.
I also prefer to know what are the best requirements for a situation, instead of accepting some big counterparts, that i wouldn't be able to manage at a time, but that just time and money, would finally overcome.

Hi there...
well as i get it the insullation material on the wall leafs can be anything with absorbing characteristics similar to fiberglass,mineral wool or rockwool.....i read in many books that there is no reason to put high density rockwool and that the fluffy one will do the job as well....i mean the insullation between the wall leafs is there for a certain reason...to act together with air as a spring in a MAM system....is that right? i think you can find lots of synthetic products that will work...i'll try to find some and post alink.
I think that finding a waterproof insulation material is probably out of question here...i think you should focus on insulation material that is moisture resistant meaning that it will retain its characteristics even in very "wet" conditions....and mineral wool is certainly not the one!! moisture and humidity has a lot to do with rapid temperature changes and sealing the insulation in plastic or something like that will not prevent anything....despite all the disadvantages from the acoustical point of view.
I think that since you consider the "flood" scenario almost certain to happen some day you should also focus on a design that will let you fix things easier if that day comes(and i hope it will never do )
meaning:design your walls in such a way that it would be posiible to have easy acces behind them and between the 2 leafs in some "risky" and "suspicious" critical points....i mean having to replace some parts of the insullation or the wall that is damaged by a flood is one thing and having to pull down all your walls is another

Nikodemos wrote:i think you should focus on insulation material that is moisture resistant meaning that it will retain its characteristics even in very "wet" conditions....and mineral wool is certainly not the one!!

On what do you base that conclusion ("certainly not the one")?

This site says "Thermafiber Firespan, Safing Insulation, Curtain Wall Insulation, FS15, FS25, and Sound Attenuation Fire Blankets (SAFBs), are mineral-fiber insulation products manufactured with high proportions of slag (80.6% post-industrial recycled content). The products come in a wide variety of densities, facings, thicknesses, and R-values, as rigid or blanket material. These products have been evaluated by an independent testing facility for low pollutant emissions. ThermaTech products, according to the manufacturer, contain no added chemical fire retardants, are noncombustible, odor-free, will not absorb moisture or support mildew or fungus, and will not rot or decay. Phenolic resin content is less than 5% by weight."

This is not the only site that provides this information, but it's the first one I found on a Google search.

Thermafiber SAFB's moisture tolerance is one of many reasons I chose that product for my build.

Obviously one shouldn't allow their insulation to drown and it would probably not survive a flood.

I guess it depends on what you mean by "very wet conditions." If it's water vapor passing through a wall, then I think it's more than fine. If the walls are oozing liquid, then the water intrusion MUST be remedied before engaging in further construction.

--Keith

Well friends, i am trying to think all this from the beginning, as it seems that with a flood risk, no mineral material would overcome, as just with cement boards/concrete maybe.

I think Keith is right, regardless of the question 'how much water would come there', as it may be water stuck for days in the rooms.

As i said i think about a total different solution, which seems ambitious: Changing my building, or better a certain height of that building, into a swimming pool-like constuction!

That would fix all my problems about right material to choose, and may lead my spending about the same, at the end !

I think i will contact a specialist about swimming pool/building waterproofing isolations asap, as it may give me the adapted product.

That building is recovered by earth, so no direct water forces against walls in case of flood (it does for my own house!), instead for the main entrance.

The challenge would be to waterproof the inside of the building as a swimming pool, but while a swimming has water inside, my building would have water coming from outside
So the water coming may push and remove the waterproof parts.So i may have to strengthen the concrete wall after putting isolation product, from the inside with another concrete wall, so the waterproof sheet would be firmly sandwished in between.

I am open to any advices, cause there i am starting the whole concept from the beginning...:evil:I just hope it will work, as i would prefer not to struggle with waterproof mineral wool/gypsum boards replacement choices, for weeks again.

Keith first of all let me say that English is not my power point so some times(actually most of the time) i can't express my thoughts correctly
I really had the impression that all kinds of mineral and fiberglass wool were very absorbive regarding water....but as it seems i was tottaly wrong ...and that's good actually
However i think that still the existence of moisture would be a big problem since the fiber itself might be water resistant but it acts as a sponge keeping all the moisture inthere...and to me this seems like a problem in a space where no fresh air is coming (betwwen the 2 leafs of a wall or between the concrete wall and the gypsumboards) .I had a very unpleasant experience with a leaking water pipe on an insulated ceiling....the mineral wool above the gypsum boards on the ceiling was full of water( we're talking about 20-25 ltrs of water coming) coming from a small leakage from the pipe for quite some time....
So what i want to say is that even the wool itself was waterresistant(i know it now ) the water stayed there and destroyed everything around it
In my case, and following your guidelines(and Nightmusic's) i decided to fix all the cracks and holes in the concrete with some proper caulking(i found quite a few and if you have a product to propose it'd be great) and then add a finishing paint with some waterproofing paint-like-material.....
anyway, Keith thanks so much for sharing your knowledge and experience
Nightmusic i saw the link with the "swimingpool" think....i hope this would not be extremely expensive......but this seems to be a quite permanent sollution....i think you could also check if possible the outter concrete wall(facing the ground) for cracks and holes....i know that it is a basement and that part is underground but some times (like in my case) there are visible cracks on the floor richt outside the basement walls
sorry for all the blah blah blah
cheers

Nikodemos, your English is really good -- I understand you very well.

I guess the fibers themselves are less likely to absorb moisture, but the insulation overall is likely to absorb moisture... Or is it? The water has to go somewhere. If you hadn't had any insulation in your water leak case, water still would have "gotten everywhere," wouldn't it?

--Keith