One room recording space - floor and wall ?

[Fuzz]

Hi, been reading this board for quite some time now - getting the hang of it but still need to read some more. In the meantime I have just a few questions hoping someone can steer me in right direction.

I have a room behind my garage that measures 12'7" x 17'5" that I use for a recording space. Most of the stuff i do is computer based multimedia/cartoon music/sfx (samples, sound-fx, etc...) but i am getting more into recording acoustic guitars as well as mic'd electric guitars, voiceovers and vocals. the rest are mainly Bass di's and sampled drums (however a stray cats minimal drumset may be an option in future) I also have a LOT of pedals, guitars, etc

I live in the flight path of burbank airport so the planes can be quite a nuisance along with an old 70's slider window and a crummy door.

I'd like to upgrade the room on the moderately inexpensive side (but not necessarily cheap - i have about $2000 - $4000 to play with - i can already hear some people laugh ;P )

here's a basic layout diagram: studio drawing

My main questions are about the flooring and walls.

FLOOR: right now it's thin carpet laid over really old crumbly linoleum on top of what i believe is concrete. I wanna get rid of the carpet and put in bamboo flooring. whaddaya think?

WALLS: all walls with the exception of the EAST wall (back of garage - stucco) have one layer of drywall - I'm pretty sure it's 3/8's inch or 1/2 inch drywall - i'm probably wrong though.

Would i be able to soundproof a bit more by putting a second layer of drywall? would this be even worth it?

CEILING: acoustical tile which i believe is mounted to plywood, flat roof - not sure of size of airspace between it though, ceiling fan in center (which will most likely go), flourescent lights (will replace with halogen? track lighting and no/low hum dimmers?)

OTHER PROBLEMS:
Door - will get a new hardwood door and seal as much of it
as possible.

Window: been looking at replacing all windows on my house which includes one for the music room - was looking at a low sound anderson dual paned vinyl window for about $1000 - $1200 - are there other options? I'd sorta need a window since i have no other ventilation other than in wall A/C (which i may repolace with an outside unit that has tubes running to wall etc) - once window is in place may devise some sort of baffle

A/C - need to either buy a better unit or find away to soundproof a/c opening. might also come up with baffle idea for when recording (yes i have to turn the air off now to record - it sucks)

Ventilation - install some sort of exhaust vent in upper corner of ceiling?

Wall on south side is not flat - South wall has a 2 foot workspace with drawer/storage below and cupboards above. I place amps and stereo tv etc on this countertop.

i can post some actual pics of the space soon to get a better idea...

this is a semi-pro/hobby mostly but i'd like to improve the sound qualities if i can for the time being - until i can afford a larger house with a larger space for studio.

so mainly i'd like to know:

1) am i totally off base? or on right track
2) if i do 2nd layer of drywall and floors - which do i do first - walls, then floors right?

I'll be providing more detailed info as soon as i can.

Look forward to anyone's comments.

Thanks!

Fuzz

[Fuzz]

God i hate to re-edit and then re-edit - but i keep remembering key pieces of information

I should have mentioned that the south/west/East walls all face outside - my backyard - outside walls are stucco'd

also, I'm not opposed to ripping out current internal drywall and adding new insulation, resilient channel (from what i read so far i think i'm on the right track) then adding new drywall - 1 layer or 2 - prob 2 due to the freekin' airplanes (and yappy pomeranian duo - that wreak havoc when i try to record acosutic guitars).

I guess if i can save a buck it would be nice - but i don't mind paying to do it right.

Fuzz

[knightfly]

Walls - with your existing construction, adding 1 layer of 1/2" wallboard inside would gain you 3 dB of isolation across the frequency range - using resilient channel on studs THEN putting two layers of 1/2" wallboard would improve isolation in upper ranges, say 300 hZ and up, by about 7 dB - it would make NO DIFFERENCE at all in the low end, where most of your "jet noise" would be residing. All that will help that low end is more mass in both sides of the wall, and wider air gap. However, the RC WOULD help the "Pomeranian Pandemonium" problem...

Right now, it's likely your windows and door are much more the problem than the walls; your walls (1/2" stucco over 5/8" ply or OSB outside, 2x4 studs, 1 layer 1/2" wallboard inside) should give about 23 dB loss at 50 hZ, and around 40-45 dB loss around midrange.

Cheap single strength windows are lucky to get STC 27, with about 15 dB loss # 50 hZ - this is if they don't also RATTLE when the jets fly over (fat chance) - so yeah, there is lots of room for improvement there.

For some window discussion, check out this link -

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... sc&start=0

second page has links to windows Lee had good results from -

A more live floor is better when micing things, you'll need to keep the ceiling (you didn't mention height, and we need more info on construction) absorbed, at least over your mix area.

Here's a good general approach to a basic rectangular room's treatment once you've gotten the sound knocked down in level -

http://www.johnlsayers.com/HR/index1.htm

I'm getting short on time, but most of your questions have answers already here - mainly in the REFERENCE section, there are things on doors, windows, floated floors, etc -

Check around a bit, and I'll get back tomorrow... Steve

[Fuzz]

Thanks steve! I really appreciate your comments.

the Milgard Window Lee ended up putting in is actually the window i was quoted on. So when it gets time to replace it (soon i hope) i'll start comparing it to other options out there.

As far as the room treatment goes I imagine the best option would be to have a full rectangular room - which means i'd have to rip out the cupboards and shelves on the South wall to obtain - however there's so much storage space that I'd lose, i'm quite hesitant to do so. Can this odd shaped wall be treated as-is, so that the storage could be retained?

here's a pic collage that illustrates what the room currently looks like: Studio Collage

NEW - Oh yeah: regarding the ceiling - it slopes down slightly from East (8' 1/4") to West - (7' 9")

I'll keep reading the materials on this site and learning, and remember:

NO RUSH at all in answering my questions - i realize you all are busy.

Thanks!

Michael

[knightfly]

Michael, you sure about that link? All I get is a "not found" message.

Depending on the shape and size of your storage, it may be something that can be worked around - soon as I can see what you're talking about I'd know more... Steve

[Fuzz]

Grrrrrrrrr.

ok it's fixed now: studio.jpg

[Fuzz]

In additon to the info above:

upon closer inspection it appears the ceiling (interlocked acoustical tiles) is mounted on possibly plywood or drywall with about a 2 inch airpsace - yet I am not sure, i'd have to remove a tile or 2

The ceiling appears to be mounted on resilient channel.

My East wall (from inside of music room) is basically the back of my garage - stucco (over plywood i assume) then a frame and then 1 sheet of drywall on inner side of garage.

Not sure how to treat this wall if i decide to demo all the others. Could I get around removing the inner part made of stucco and wireframe by mounting some alternative up there?

Or would it be best to remove all inner leaves including drywall and insulation from S, W, N walls as well as remove stucco from east wall?

thanks

[knightfly]

I can't really answer too much til we know more about your exact ceiling construction, not including the actual roof - that's going to be a major source of the jet noise infiltrating. If you just have a 2" air gap and acoustic type tiles on RC, it's going to do almost NOTHING for sound iso.

If you need to get away from the kind of noise you have, gutting the place is really about the only practical way - you're going to need MASS and decoupling to get there.

Gotta run, I'm gonna be late for work... Steve

[Fuzz]

Hey Knighfly thanks for your patience.

I took a closer look at the ceiling construction. There are two layers of acoustic tile.

the first is attached to what i assume is drywall covered ceiling. There's about 6 inches space from that tile to the rooftop. I imagine it's insulated etc.

the second layer of acoustic tile floats - suspended by some sort of metal channels. It is about an inch away from the top layer.

like i said earlier - the ceiling is slanted, sloping down slightly from East (8' 1/4") to West - (7' 9")

see this diagram

hope this info helps - let me know if i need to clarify anything further.

thanks again!

michael

[knightfly]

Michael, that looks like a recipe for dissapointment, especially in your "jet set" environment - if it's possible for you to entirely gut your room to the framing, including the ceiling, that will get you quite a bit better results than ANY "bandaids" we could come up with - here's a basic concept drawing of optimum isolation, with a bit of text explanation - this also applies to isolation from the outside world; mass, air(insulation), mass - period. Anything else is pretty much an excercise in futility -

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 5478#15478

So, you need to find out exactly how your space is built, and identify the outer mass leaf (typically the outside siding, including stucco layer if any) and find out if that outer leaf is continued in any way across the ceiling and down the other wall. If so, great - if not, you need to find a way to MAKE that happen. Then, you need a de-coupled INNER leaf with insulated air space between it and the outer leaf. Decoupling can be had by using Resilient Channel correctly, if you can't afford the extra space that a separate frame will take up - however, you get several dB better isolation if you can go with a completely separate frame for the inner leaf.

Let me know what you find, if possible post some pix or a drawing with as much detail as you can find out - in your case, a 10-12 inch air gap between inner and outer leaf, ceiling included, wouldn't be excessive - that low frequency jet noise is a bitch... Steve