Cellar/Basement WATER proofing

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Freya
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Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2004 7:02 am

Cellar/Basement WATER proofing

Post by Freya »

I see lots of people on here talking about converting basements and I've read and read and read on the subject and learned all kinds of interesting things that I didn't know. However, not a single thread I have come across has been about water proofing!

Maybe this is not a problem in the states, but I live in an old victorian back to back terraced house in England (Europe), and it rains in England quite a lot. Cellars tend to get a little damp. Mine is actually possibly the driest cellar I have ever been in but you can still smell the damp in the air a little in winter.

It's obviously a tiny space.

I do own the house but have VERY limited finances.

The cellar has obviously not been tanked, and nor can I afford to do so, however I wondered if I would need to tank it anyway if I was just going to build a room inside the room?

If I was to do this I was thinking I could seal the inner room in pond liner, so that the damp couldn't get in? Would this work or would it cause more problems? Perhaps this would just mean that condensation built up inside or something and was unable to get out?

I'm concerned too that damp will get in the rock wool, thus defeating its ability to soundproof.

Does anyone have any suggestions on this?

I'd also love to hear from anyone in the u.k. who has converted a cellar to studio space.

I'm preety scared about doing the building anyway, so I really would like to get any tips I can. :)


love

Freya
knightfly
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Post by knightfly »

Freya, first welcome to the board - you've used an (apparently) English term, "tanking" - though I'm not familiar with the term, can I assume it means sealing the basement so it could theoretically act as a tank? I was only in your country for about 6 months clear back in 1967, so only picked up probably 5% of the UK specific slang terms at best -

Basements anywhere are a problem, and I remember enough of English weather to know your location probably isn't too dry below grade. One of the problems with trying to tackle this problem from the inside is that when water can't get where it wants to go, the level tends to rise and the pressure builds up until it either finds a path or MAKES one, which generally makes even MORE of a mess than before. IF you can't eliminate the dampness before building interior walls, you usually only manage to make a non-ventilated place where things can get wetter, mold can grow better, and materials can deteriorate faster :cry:

There is an online document I've linked to before, that may help you understand more of the problems and solutions, but I don't think any of the things mentioned could be called "cheap" - it's located here

http://www.buildingscience.com/resource ... ystems.pdf

The problem with this particular situation and soundproofing is that they are almost mutually exclusive - sound proofing requires two masses separated by a hermetically sealed air gap, which should be filled with either fiberglass or rockwool insulation to minimise air currents within the wall - exactly the conditions mold loves, and exactly the conditions you DON'T want if things tend to get damp - instead, you'd want air circulation and heat around the damp area to keep it dry.

When you look at the basement document, you'll see some of the ways builders use to avoid the excess moisture in the first place - however, for an existing construction digging down to below the basement floor (in order to lay proper drainage) from outside is prohibitive for nearly ANY budget.

Since I don't have a basement, I've not kept up with recent offerings in waterproofing coatings, so it's possible there may be something available now that can be coated onto the inside surfaces of a damp basement - you might find better info on this locally by asking a few contractors in your area; if there is such a product, it would have to be pretty expensive in order to be strong enough and adherent enough not to fail under the conditions I mentioned.

It's also possible that others of our members may have knowledge of something that may work for you; hopefully that's true - another thing that I've seen is doing a small well in one corner of a basement and installing an automatic sump pump - however, this wouldn't keep things dry enough by itself to get away with building soundproof walls.

Still others have used dehumidifiers with some success - these aren't cheap, and cost a fair amount per month to run as well, but they do pull a lot of moisture out of the air.

Wish I could be more optimistic, hopefully some of this is helpful... Steve
z60611
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Location: Ontario, Canada

Post by z60611 »

One place that sells waterproofing stuff is the drylok brand: http://www.ugl.com/DRYLOKframes02.html
Freya
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Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2004 7:02 am

Tanking

Post by Freya »

Tanking is a way of keeping the water out yes. Traditionally you either spray weird plastic stuff on the walls or you put this sort of plastic panneling in place with plastic studs. There is usually a way to drain the water off too, so it doesn't build up and ruin everything. I think it is a fairly modern term but I'm not sure. I don't understand the tanking thing that well as I kind of switched off when I realised what it cost!

Funny you are getting confused by the English terms, I find it hard going on these sites too as I have to translate all the American words instead! lol!

love

Freya
Freya
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Post by Freya »

knightfly wrote:
Basements anywhere are a problem, and I remember enough of English weather to know your location probably isn't too dry below grade. One of
It's not too bad, it just has a slight smell of dampness. It smellls a bit like a German basement IMHO, as opposed to a full on English mould and water seeping basement. It's preety dry but theres vapur in the air for sure.
the problems with trying to tackle this problem from the inside is that when water can't get where it wants to go, the level tends to rise and the pressure builds up until it either finds a path or MAKES one, which generally makes even MORE of a mess than before. IF you can't eliminate the dampness before building interior walls, you usually only manage to make a non-ventilated place where things can get wetter, mold can grow better, and materials can deteriorate faster :cry:
EXACTLY! But that is why I am thinking that If I build an inner room, I can seal that and let the air and damp vapour flow around it! It should also provide better sound insulation by having an air gap.

As an example you could maybe put a commercial vocal booth in the cellar and it would be okay outside and wouldn't be in contact with the walls and stuff, but maybe the external metal would rust over time???

What are the flaws in this idea?
There is an online document I've linked to before, that may help you understand more of the problems and solutions, but I don't think any of the things mentioned could be called "cheap" - it's located here

http://www.buildingscience.com/resource ... ystems.pdf
Thanks I will check it out although I expect it will be so hideous expensive it will not be practical.
The problem with this particular situation and soundproofing is that they are almost mutually exclusive - sound proofing requires two masses separated by a hermetically sealed air gap, which should be filled with either fiberglass or rockwool insulation to minimise air currents within the wall - exactly the conditions mold loves, and exactly the conditions you DON'T want if things tend to get damp - instead, you'd want air circulation and heat around the damp area to keep it dry.
exactly, but I'm thinking that I could keep the vapour out of this inner area and let it flow around?
When you look at the basement document, you'll see some of the ways builders use to avoid the excess moisture in the first place - however, for an existing construction digging down to below the basement floor (in order to lay proper drainage) from outside is prohibitive for nearly ANY budget.

Actually I have that on one wall. Ironically it is the dampest section but that is because the drainage was blocked. I'm fixing that at the moment, but another wall is below ground.
Since I don't have a basement, I've not kept up with recent offerings in waterproofing coatings, so it's possible there may be something available now that can be coated onto the inside surfaces of a damp basement - you might find better info on this locally by asking a few contractors in your area; if there is such a product, it would have to be pretty expensive in order to be strong enough and adherent enough not to fail under the conditions I mentioned.
I'm wondering if I can bypass this altogether by letting the damp flow around but not inside. Kind of how tanking works in a way I guess but not tanking the actual walls but really building a "tank" inside? (Well really a room but a sealed one. I guess the trouble would be if I didn't seal it exactly right?
It's also possible that others of our members may have knowledge of something that may work for you; hopefully that's true - another thing that I've seen is doing a small well in one corner of a basement and installing an automatic sump pump - however, this wouldn't keep things dry enough by itself to get away with building soundproof walls.
???Theres not running water present! It's just vapour in the air? Or does the sump pump pull water from the air, I'm not sure what you mean?
Still others have used dehumidifiers with some success - these aren't cheap, and cost a fair amount per month to run as well, but they do pull a lot of moisture out of the air.
Actually, dehumidifies don't seem that expensive here and I've definitely been thinking about one.

Not sure if it should go inside or outside the structure tho!

It seems at least one person has built a basement studio in my area and I'm going to try and contact them to see what they did. It seems however almost like a lot of people just ignore the problem!

I just can't believe nobody ever talks about this and I see a lot of postings, here and elsewhere about building in basements and everyone only talks about the SOUND proofing! Even if you only have cheap and nasty equipment like me, it's enough to be scared about!

Thanks for the reply! :)

love

Freya
Freya
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Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2004 7:02 am

To Clarify...

Post by Freya »

To clarify, I'm talking about an internal structure, within the room that is not in contact with the existing walls, and is sealed.

My guess is the 2 big problems would be, being sure it was really sealed and moisture inside the structure being unable to escape and building up in the rockwool and plasterboard.

Maybe there would be other problems too?

love

Freya
knightfly
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Location: West Coast, USA

Post by knightfly »

"Theres not running water present! It's just vapour in the air? Or does the sump pump pull water from the air, I'm not sure what you mean? "

Some basements are so wet that the actually IS running water - this is where a sump pump is needed, before you can even THINK about a dehumidifier.

Location of dehumidifier - in your case, I would think BOTH inside and outside the studio portion. If you leave the area between the studio and basement walls damp, it will damage your studio walls, degrade the insulation (even mineral wool, but not as much) and rot the framing timbers. If you store acoustic instruments like pianos, guitars or violins, etc, in your studio, the ideal humidity is around 42-45%, which is unlikely to happen without a dehumidifier in that air space.

If you ignore the dampness, eventually the MOLD will get you.

All in all, from the sound of your situation you should find a good "magic spray" or such to waterproof your inner walls, but allow for drainage however you can; then, I'd look for a good price on TWO dehumidifiers; leave enough space behind one of your new walls for the unit, with an access door (weatherstripped to help protect your sound proofing efforts) and the other unit in the studio proper. I'd set the humidistat (the control on the dehumidifier) to maintain 42% in the studio, and the same between the walls - even if it can't maintain that setting, you should try.

If you don't have a way of draining these units continually (most have an optional garden hose connector for this) you will need to empty their catch-pots on a VERY regular basis - it's amazing just how much water they will extract in a relatively short time. Every couple of days isn't too often to check, and they might fill up and shut off even sooner in some conditions.

If you have the option, go for a quieter unit for inside the studio - you might be able to leave it on while working in some cases.

Good luck... Steve
blakemcginnis
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Post by blakemcginnis »

Check out Xypex. It is a powder substance that is mixed to a slurry and applied to concrete. It infiltratres the tiny cracks and holes in the concrete and makes a permanent bond. If water ever comes in contact with the cracks, the xypex reactivates and "heals" the cracks. I did a lot of research and this was basically the only affordable permanent solution that I could do myself. I was able to find the product at Lowes, a home improvement store. Do not go with products like drylok or other 'paint-on' sealant products, they all will eventually separate and crack and need re-applying. As you are going to be building a room inside a room, reapplying is not an option :) This xypex stuff has been used by a lot of major corporations for many years, including the US army, and is also used to seal swimming pools, etc.

I don't work for xypex or anyting, I just thought I'd recommend something that will give you some peace of mind after that wall goes up. I didn't have standing water in my basement, but the walls would have large dark spots after it rained, where the walls were damp. After I put two layers (2 coats are recommended for porous concrete blocks) of xypex on the wall, I got to watch for 3 weeks of heavy raining before I started construction on the new wall....no dark spots.

good luck!
Freya
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Post by Freya »

Thanks Steve!

My basement is actually very dry. I've been loking at it very closely, and the only places where there is evidence of damp (white salt furry bricks) is where there are cracks in the brickwork. I guess water gets in the cracks and does bad things to the bricks. Maybe it is possible to re-cement these cracks.

I also have a tiny bit of wall that has some damp damage from a drain that was overflowing when I moved here.

I was talking to someone and had a revelation about the walls however. 3 of my walls are internal walls! It's a back to back terrace house, so the back wall is a wall to fake the houses into 2. The wall to one side is just the wall next to the stairs, and the wall on the other side is the wall of the coal bunker! The walls on the 2 sides aren't even the outer walls of my house!

I could maybe waterproof some of the walls. The last wall however is partially below my garden and the corner of that wall is also external but the outside of the corner is a lower level because of the basement entrance being there.

I certainly don't want to do anything that might cause my foundations to dissolve!

Maybe I just need a dehumidifier and a bit of fixing up!

love

Freya
knightfly
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Post by knightfly »

Freya, it does sound like you have less of a problem than first thought, that's great - I would watch it carefully for a while though, and I'd run a dehumidifier for a few weeks down there (without a drain) to see just how much water removal there is; if it's a lot, I would still recommend TWO dehumidifiers; one between the walls and one in your space.

Not many humidity guages seem to be very accurate; I've found one that's reasonable and accurate (I bought two - they both read within 1% of each other in all locations, which is very unusual) Here's a link to where I got them if you're concerned with wooden musical instrument health -

http://www.natlallergy.com/allergy/prod ... meter.html

I'd heard of that xypex stuff, then forgotten it - sounds pretty serious if you need a good sealant.

Sorry for the long link, that's what makes side scrolling necessary... Steve
Freya
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Post by Freya »

That's funny! I hadn't even thought of wooden instruments! Good point!

It's not like there is any visible water anywhere in the basement, it's just there is water vapour in the air. There are some signs of past water damage too where the drains overflowed etc.

It's actually very dry for a cellar in England.

I think the thing is that the atmospheric conditions are very different in England to the states.

I like the idea of trying the humidity guage, but I'm not sure what the readings would mean! At what kind of humidity would I have problems of damp or even mould in my rockwool!?????

I like the link you sent, at least it gives me some idea about the percentage for dust mites! :)

love

Freya
Freya
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Joined: Sun Oct 10, 2004 7:02 am

Post by Freya »

Thanks Blake!

I will keep an eye out for the xypex if they have it over here!

Sound good!

love

Freya
knightfly
Senior Member
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Post by knightfly »

Freya, I'm not sure on the rockwool mould; generally it's better to keep humidity lower than 50% on almost anything, although rockwool seems to be less susceptible to damage from mould and fire and moisture than almost any other insulation -

I'm glad you looked around at that health site and noticed the problems with higher humidity in general. More specific, here's a couple links about humidity and instruments -

http://www.highpointpiano.com/pages/hum ... ntrol.html

http://www.ventureservepublishing.com/harries.htm

Scroll down the page on that last one - note that it would be much cheaper to control the whole area with a generic dehumidifier than to install one of these in a piano -

Guitars -

http://www.guitarseminars.com/ubb/Forum ... 00105.html

And the most complete one I've found, if you have acoustic instruments you should read all of this -

http://www.pjguitar.com/article2.htm

And finally, if you've not found the xypex site -

http://www.xypex.com/

(Yeah, I know, that would have been tricky to find :wink: )

Enjoy... Steve
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