Rogue wall using SIPs
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Aaberg
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- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 4:14 am
- Location: Montana, USA
Rogue wall using SIPs
Hmmmm....every piece of sheet rock I added improved the STC on that wall. Are you saying it would have been better if I hadn't put 1 layer of EPDM to help damp the sound? Guess I'd have to see some stats on that. So then, do you think it'd just be better if I put 3 or so layers of external sheet rock on the outside of the wall and covered it, rather than going to all the trouble and expense of a concrete wall?
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knightfly
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- Location: West Coast, USA
Your description sounded like you had used strips of rubber between layers of sheet rock - to me, this means that there are air gaps between the sheets of sheet rock, in between the strips of rubber. Did you mean that you completely filled the space between sheet rock layers with the EPDM? If so, that's a whole different story.
I'm not sure how you'd get away with using sheet rock for an outer wall; am I missing something here? Is there something else that will keep the outer sheet rock from becoming mush? Steve
I'm not sure how you'd get away with using sheet rock for an outer wall; am I missing something here? Is there something else that will keep the outer sheet rock from becoming mush? Steve
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Aaberg
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 4:14 am
- Location: Montana, USA
Rogue wall using SIPs
Steve,
I've got to quit posting these things after I've stayed up all night!
There are strips of rubber on the studs that I mounted the sheet rock to, NOT between the sheets themselves. So, no air gaps between sheet rock. I just thought that isolating the sheet rock from the studs would be a good move.
Now, about the exterior sheet rock. An architect told me about that...some special kind of sheet rock for exterior use...but I haven't been able to find any.
OK...assuming that I still have a single leaf wall here with a pretty low STC rating (just using my ears: you can hear loud conversation through the wall) , and having seen my drawings and photos, what would you do to get an acceptable level in that room? That wall seems to be the only problem.
Thanks.
Phil
I've got to quit posting these things after I've stayed up all night!
There are strips of rubber on the studs that I mounted the sheet rock to, NOT between the sheets themselves. So, no air gaps between sheet rock. I just thought that isolating the sheet rock from the studs would be a good move.
Now, about the exterior sheet rock. An architect told me about that...some special kind of sheet rock for exterior use...but I haven't been able to find any.
OK...assuming that I still have a single leaf wall here with a pretty low STC rating (just using my ears: you can hear loud conversation through the wall) , and having seen my drawings and photos, what would you do to get an acceptable level in that room? That wall seems to be the only problem.
Thanks.
Phil
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knightfly
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6976
- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
So you're saying that your drawing is wrong, and there is NOT EPDM spacers between each layer of sheet rock on this wall?
The only thing I'm aware of that might be called "exterior" sheet rock is the "greenboard" version - this is higher cost and mainly used for wetter areas, such as bathrooms and kitchens. I don't know of any gypsum product that's code acceptable for cladding on outside frame walls, because it's not that resistant to nail tear-out and won't give much "racking" strength (resistance to stud frames getting "non-parallel", or out of square)
If you only have one effective leaf and can hear loud conversation, your wall is probably around STC 35 or so -
Since the inner wall is already in place, you can't really use the cinder blocks in a "surface bonded block" mode, which would actually give more strength AND better sound proofing, but you can use them in a conventional, "buttered block" mode - this is better left to a pro, it's not real easy to get the mix right or maintain true over the length of the wall if you've not done a LOT of this. If you go with cinder block, you WILL need to sand-fill or you'll have quite a bit worse LF performance.
I would glue either rigid fiberglass or mineral wool to the outside of your existing sip, then build the block wall as high as you can before running into that overhang - at that point, you could trim 2x's (PT, and put the trimmed side toward the WOOD, NOT toward the blocks - the cut side should also be treated with Thompson's or equal) - these would go at the inside and outside edges of the blocks, topping off the sand fill in each cavity before the outer 2x gets placed -
So the order would be, build the wall, place the inner 2x PT "filler" on top of the inside edge of the block, getting it as close to size as will allow you to put it in place - then fill the gap with caulk if it's less than 3/8", if it's more than that you'll need foam "backer rod", also called "caulk saver", Home Depot usually carries it in either the caulk or weather stripping section - with the larger gap, caulk the foam rod thoroughly.
Once you have the inner edge of the block wall airtight, you can finish the sand fill of all cavities, level with the tops of the blocks - if you can, vibrate the wall all along its length to make sure the sand is settled as much as it will. Ask your locak tool rental place about a tool to do this.
The insulation I mentioned will also keep any mortar droppings from shorting out the air space between the sip and the blocks.
IF you want the best performance you can get from this definitely wierd conglomeration, you could drill holes every foot or so along the outer 2x board on top of the blocks, and fill the cavities with spray foam - this will keep that short section from becoming triple leaf. I'm not sure how much difference this would make, just that I would do this if I were building it.
Then, you can cover the whole thing with siding, stucco it, whatever - that part, unless you fur out and use siding or something, won't matter much one way or the other.
I hope you hurry up and finish this wierd thing, it's giving me a headache
And I'd like to know how it turns out... Steve
The only thing I'm aware of that might be called "exterior" sheet rock is the "greenboard" version - this is higher cost and mainly used for wetter areas, such as bathrooms and kitchens. I don't know of any gypsum product that's code acceptable for cladding on outside frame walls, because it's not that resistant to nail tear-out and won't give much "racking" strength (resistance to stud frames getting "non-parallel", or out of square)
If you only have one effective leaf and can hear loud conversation, your wall is probably around STC 35 or so -
Since the inner wall is already in place, you can't really use the cinder blocks in a "surface bonded block" mode, which would actually give more strength AND better sound proofing, but you can use them in a conventional, "buttered block" mode - this is better left to a pro, it's not real easy to get the mix right or maintain true over the length of the wall if you've not done a LOT of this. If you go with cinder block, you WILL need to sand-fill or you'll have quite a bit worse LF performance.
I would glue either rigid fiberglass or mineral wool to the outside of your existing sip, then build the block wall as high as you can before running into that overhang - at that point, you could trim 2x's (PT, and put the trimmed side toward the WOOD, NOT toward the blocks - the cut side should also be treated with Thompson's or equal) - these would go at the inside and outside edges of the blocks, topping off the sand fill in each cavity before the outer 2x gets placed -
So the order would be, build the wall, place the inner 2x PT "filler" on top of the inside edge of the block, getting it as close to size as will allow you to put it in place - then fill the gap with caulk if it's less than 3/8", if it's more than that you'll need foam "backer rod", also called "caulk saver", Home Depot usually carries it in either the caulk or weather stripping section - with the larger gap, caulk the foam rod thoroughly.
Once you have the inner edge of the block wall airtight, you can finish the sand fill of all cavities, level with the tops of the blocks - if you can, vibrate the wall all along its length to make sure the sand is settled as much as it will. Ask your locak tool rental place about a tool to do this.
The insulation I mentioned will also keep any mortar droppings from shorting out the air space between the sip and the blocks.
IF you want the best performance you can get from this definitely wierd conglomeration, you could drill holes every foot or so along the outer 2x board on top of the blocks, and fill the cavities with spray foam - this will keep that short section from becoming triple leaf. I'm not sure how much difference this would make, just that I would do this if I were building it.
Then, you can cover the whole thing with siding, stucco it, whatever - that part, unless you fur out and use siding or something, won't matter much one way or the other.
I hope you hurry up and finish this wierd thing, it's giving me a headache
And I'd like to know how it turns out... Steve-
Aaberg
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 4:14 am
- Location: Montana, USA
Rogue Wall Using SIPs
"I hope you hurry up and finish this wierd thing, it's giving me a headache And I'd like to know how it turns out... Steve"
Man...think how I feel!!! That was EXACTLY what I was looking for. The bin (the main recording room) turned out great, so that's a big load off my mind. Thanks for all your help...I'll be sending a contribution when this all sifts down.
Best,
Phil
Man...think how I feel!!! That was EXACTLY what I was looking for. The bin (the main recording room) turned out great, so that's a big load off my mind. Thanks for all your help...I'll be sending a contribution when this all sifts down.
Best,
Phil
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knightfly
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6976
- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
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Aaberg
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 4:14 am
- Location: Montana, USA
Rogue wall using SIPs
Yeah...the long stick of the Fly. I almost stepped on a rattler fishing up in the Sweetgrass Hills a few weeks ago. (why he was fishing up in the Sweetgrass Hills I'll never know). The wind was blowing like hell and I guess it didn't hear me until my foot was about 6 inches from it.
All right...2 questions:
I've checked on what glue to use with the 703 on the outside wall as you suggested. Sounds like epoxy works fine...is that right? I might have to temporarily wrap the wall and 703 while I wait for the masonry guys to shake their schedule loose.
Second, while I'm treating that CR, I'd like to have a fairly accurate position for the monitors. Bob Hodas gave me one based on some dimensions that have since changed. I've looked at the "Wall Bounce Calculator" which is very impressive and tweaky, but really, we've got these fast great computers now, right? Is there a program available where I can just plug in the dimensions of the room and get a fairly accurate placement? I can't find one using search engines.
Thanks.
Phil
All right...2 questions:
I've checked on what glue to use with the 703 on the outside wall as you suggested. Sounds like epoxy works fine...is that right? I might have to temporarily wrap the wall and 703 while I wait for the masonry guys to shake their schedule loose.
Second, while I'm treating that CR, I'd like to have a fairly accurate position for the monitors. Bob Hodas gave me one based on some dimensions that have since changed. I've looked at the "Wall Bounce Calculator" which is very impressive and tweaky, but really, we've got these fast great computers now, right? Is there a program available where I can just plug in the dimensions of the room and get a fairly accurate placement? I can't find one using search engines.
Thanks.
Phil
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knightfly
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6976
- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
I wouldn't use glue directly on the 703 for this app - it may slump because the 703 can separate due to gravity if it''s not compressed enough. Better to use Impaling clips (just cut and paste those last two words into Google)
I'd use the epoxy to mount the impaling clips, then just shove the 703 onto them...
If you have to cover the 703 no prob, visquene or whatever. check out links around here for vapor barriers, etc, before you decide whether to LEAVE the plastic though (probably NOT) when the wall goes up.
Quick -
http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area= ... Room+Setup
Not so quick, but very cool; $75 for power pack (recommended)
http://www.cara.de/ENU/index.html
Neither will do curved space (maybe Cara, don't remember) cara takes a LOT of time to wrap yourself around enough to be sure, but is very deep and really cheap.
Hope that helps... Steve
I'd use the epoxy to mount the impaling clips, then just shove the 703 onto them...
If you have to cover the 703 no prob, visquene or whatever. check out links around here for vapor barriers, etc, before you decide whether to LEAVE the plastic though (probably NOT) when the wall goes up.
Quick -
http://www.cardas.com/content.php?area= ... Room+Setup
Not so quick, but very cool; $75 for power pack (recommended)
http://www.cara.de/ENU/index.html
Neither will do curved space (maybe Cara, don't remember) cara takes a LOT of time to wrap yourself around enough to be sure, but is very deep and really cheap.
Hope that helps... Steve
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Aaberg
- Posts: 104
- Joined: Tue Jul 27, 2004 4:14 am
- Location: Montana, USA
Rogue wall using SIPs
Great, Steve. Thanks a million.
I've been trying to find a dealer for Impaling Clips for a week. Guess
the high-priced Sound Thieves are the only source?
Any names for a Sound Analysis program to plug in the dimensions of a room and get a monitor placement suggestion?
Thanks.
I've been trying to find a dealer for Impaling Clips for a week. Guess
the high-priced Sound Thieves are the only source?
Any names for a Sound Analysis program to plug in the dimensions of a room and get a monitor placement suggestion?
Thanks.
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knightfly
- Senior Member
- Posts: 6976
- Joined: Sun Mar 16, 2003 11:11 am
- Location: West Coast, USA
http://www.audiophilia.com/hardware/visears.htm
'bout all I found that looked even vaguely useful... Steve
'bout all I found that looked even vaguely useful... Steve