concrete+big window drum/rehearsal room to be isolated

[Dieter@be]

Hello guys.
This is a little movie of my room that show anything in a 360° range :
http://users.PLEASE DELETE ME I AM A PANDY6 SPAMMER.be/plvl/ikke/drum/HPIM1402.MPG
the room i start filming at, is at the side of the house, at the outside, there is an "air gap" of about 10m to the next house. Then the window. This will be the biggest problem i guess, behind the window is the street, with neighbours then at the left another "raw" wall , behind the wall are 2-3 rooms untill the next house, the next house is built right next to us, so basicly there is direct contact, but with a few rooms in between the neighours' house and my room.
(The neighbours that lives at this side says he doesn't like it when we rehearse, he can live with the fact that i practice drums, but with the guitar amps... In fact I wonder, would it be the sound that passes via the window, or via the direct contact of the walls, that reaches him).
Then finally, at the opposite side of the window/drumkit, there is a small room with some stuff, and a window that points to our garden, so the neighbours at this side are further away

That said, i would like to know what could be done for not to much cash. (maybe in 5 years i dont live here anymore.... it would be nice if the materials used, could be re-used in another location: eg Acoustic Hangers). Also, i practice drums for 2 years now, and there is only one neighbours that says he doesnt like it when we rehearse with the band, but he can live with the drums apart (the neighbour i also described above). So I think it would be good do as many for not too much money, in terms of absorbing the sound, and not reflecting (guitaramps have to be loud else i cant hear them, everybody must use hear protection...the concrete walls...) but also isolating the sound so that it doesnt pass on too much to the neighbours.

Most of the stuff discussed here is more profesional design, so let this be a new challenge
I read that i could use carpet for the "not reflecting" of sound, but i dont want to much dust in the room because otherwise i have to sneeze all the time

http://www.saecollege.de/reference_mate ... 0Chart.htm
It looks like a lot can be done with plywood.
I guess the window is the critical spot for the sound leak to the neighbours, and the concrete is the problem for the sound reflection right, so maybe i can make cheap accoustic hangers diy, that i can mount in front of the window (i think it would be better if the window shouldn't be sealed permantenly)

[sharward]

Welcome to the forum, and greetings from America.

I feel your pain, brother. I was in a very similar position as you. Unfortunately, the wid range of sound you're generating require a sophisticated (meaning expensive) solution.

You may have already learned in your research that there's a big difference between sound treatments (which improve the quality of sound within the noisy space) and sound isolation (which keeps noise from reaching quiet space). There just isn't any shortcut that allows you to use one for the other.

...soundproofing isn't cheap, nor is it "portable"... (source)

Someone else started a thread about a similar problem with no budget, in which I posted some advice to make the drums themselves quieter.

Perhaps the "experts" on the forum (which does not include me) have some ideas for you... But I expect the answer is going to be expensive and elaborate.

In my case, I ended up purchasing a new home with a very large garage to accommodate a room-within-a-room rehearsal studio. You can see the thread I started for my project.

I wish I could be more encouraging, but the laws of physics and my respect for your budget prohibit me from recommending anything else.

[Dieter@be]

believe it or not, but your topic was one of the first topics i read (well only the first posts and the pics )
In terms of budget: its not that i dont have the money, I just don't want to spend it on stuff that costs much and can't be used again afterwards. If there is, say, some material that i can remove again in 5-10 years, and use it again in some other place, thats great, and no problem to spend the money on
Also, I think, that if we isolate (expensive) only the window, and for the rest, maybe cover the 1 big wall + some wall at the right of the drum (next to the closet) to absorb the sound, i might get pretty decent results? I guess sound absorbing is cheaper then sound isolation right? Maybe also some absorbing material on the ceiling, but that might be hard to do

btw the nylon tips/brushes/... sticks is a great idea. I've also been thinking about this, but haven't bought them yet...that's gonna change
The moongel is also a good idea, i think, i just hope it doenst make the drumsound to much worse then it already is.
The black pads-->no way
A platform for the kit....Maybe i can build that, but doubt a bit if it will work well, maybe for the people inside the house (below), but to the outside?

btw:
Look at the bottom of the page, it looks like adding drapery,... makes the room reverb great at high ranges (duh), but the low end becomes terrible :s

[sharward]

believe it or not, but your topic was one of the first topics i read (well only the first posts and the pics )

Cool.

In terms of budget: its not that i dont have the money, I just don't want to spend it on stuff that costs much and can't be used again afterwards.

I see. I guess I took your statement of "for not too much money" as a matter of availability and not willingness.

If there is, say, some material that i can remove again in 5-10 years, and use it again in some other place, thats great, and no problem to spend the money on

I think some of the treatments can be moved afterwards, but whatever you do for isolation are going to be more or less permanent. That's because to effectively isolate the space means to build additional walls and/or a floating floor, all of which is a custom job. Even if you could take it with you, it's questionable how useful it would be at your future residence.

Also, I think, that if we isolate (expensive) only the window, and for the rest, maybe cover the 1 big wall + some wall at the right of the drum (next to the closet) to absorb the sound, i might get pretty decent results? I guess sound absorbing is cheaper then sound isolation right?

While I agree that your window is guilty, eliminating the window problem won't make the room innocent. It won't be enough as far as your neighbors are concerned. If you have a bucket full of large holes, plugging the biggest hole will not accomplish very much in terms of holding any water in it. One of the key points I have learned about soundproofing is that the solution is a lot like a chain -- one weak link can have disasterous consequences.

Maybe also some absorbing material on the ceiling, but that might be hard to do

Hard to do? Probably not. Effective for isolation? Not at all.

btw the nylon tips/brushes/... sticks is a great idea. I've also been thinking about this, but haven't bought them yet...that's gonna change

Buy the Cool Rods -- they're cheap and you'll probably enjoy them now and then. Plus, if you're ever in a situation where you're performing at a venue or a particular song that requires you to be more gentle, they're great for that.

The moongel is also a good idea, i think, i just hope it doenst make the drumsound to much worse then it already is.

It depends on the drums and your preference, but I think the drums sound better with them.

The black pads-->no way

I don't blame you! That's why we moved!

A platform for the kit....Maybe i can build that, but doubt a bit if it will work well, maybe for the people inside the house (below), but to the outside?

I have no idea... You might check out the drum-talk.com forum to see if anyone there has any thoughts on that.

btw:
Look at the bottom of the page, it looks like adding drapery,... makes the room reverb great at high ranges (duh), but the low end becomes terrible :s

That's all about treatment, not isolation.

Perhaps you can think about this some more... How much cash are you willing to spend, and how much of that investment are you willing to sacrifice in terms of "leaving it behind" when you move someday?

Once you have that, post back, and inlclude as much detail about the construction of your house as possible. (The video is cool -- but it doesn't give the details that are needed to craft a solution.)

Another factor is whether you own or rent... (I've been assuming with with a 5 to 10 year horizon that you own.)

Finally, consider [edit: link to Roland V-Drums kit no longer valid]

Just kidding! (Or maybe not! )

[Dieter@be]

believe it or not, but I'm already building an elektronic kit
it isn't finished yet, but i'm pretty close (gibraltar rack, boomarms, roland pd6 pads+v-cymbals, alesis DM5 module, and my double pedals that i took of my accoustic kit)
It is just pretty hard to get it decently working

[Dieter@be]

A friend of mine offers me some "left-over " materiaal (plenty for me) that should isolate against the sound.
I don't have a picture or name, but its like 1cm of "plaster" (pretty hard) white material, with 5-6cm yellow "glass-whull" on it, bad explanation, i know, but maybe you'll understand since i could buy it for a nice price , i think this would be a good starting point? if i put panels of this in front of the window, maybe even 2 layers, and a layer on the wall (not the wall with the closet duh)
Although i don't know if this stuff "spreads particles in the air" that could be bad for the health! (i'll see if i can make a pic, but in the meanwhile, feel free to reply :p )

[knightfly]

This sounds like some sort of "pre-insulated" gypsum wallboard - if so, one layer might be OK if you put it on "inside-out", so the insulation stuff is toward the room - you would need to cover the insulation with some sort of cloth.

Doing that would give you slightly more mass for the inner leaf of your existing wall, and a bit of absorption for acoustics inside the room - however, it won't be a lot of either.

If you use more than one layer of that stuff, OR if you put it on your walls with the insulation toward the wall, you will create a triple leaf wall which will actually HURT your isolation at the lower frequencies... Steve

[Dieter@be]

yeah, at first i thought about placing it with the insulation (yellow stuff) pointing to the inside, but the friend who has the left-overs has a bar, the neighbours complained about the noise, so he placed the yellow stuff in between the gypsum and the normal wall. And he says the noise outside is better now, i believe they measured it with a decibelmeter (or the police did that ) but I don't know the exact details about it.
But according to this story, it seems that is does work with the insulation in between the wall and the gypsum
Also (because i said i wanted to mount it with the insulation to the inside) the guy said particles will come floating in the air (bad for health) but that can indeed be fixed with a cloth or something.

So, you make me doubt now, the guy says it works the other way around, so...
And its not a good idea if i would place eg 2 layers in front of the window? thats probably because this stuff normally absorbs the sounds and not isolates right? (like the url with the frequency curve i posted a few posts ago ) ?

[knightfly]

The main thing that confuses this issue is that police typically measure dBA, not dBC; that's the way almost all noise ordinances are written, so that's what they do.

dBA is a differently eq'd scale than dBC, which is designed more for MUSIC SPL's - so a meter that's looking at dBA won't see as much low frequency noise as a dBC meter will.

When you put more than one air space in a sound barrier you hurt the isolation at low frequencies, which are the hardest to control - but you HELP the isolation at the MID range, which is where the police's meters work most. So, even though the police won't see it as a problem, the NEIGHBORS will STILL hear more BASS, and will likely STILL call the cops.

The cops will measure, say there's no problem, and the same thing happens the NEXT night...

Here's a page that will hopefull explain this more - pay close attention to the wall examples at the bottom, you'll see that having more than two places in a wall where there is mass is a BAD thing -

http://www.domesticsoundproofing.co.uk/tloss.htm

Hope this helps... Steve

[Dieter@be]

Ok sorry for bringing up back this old topic, but that friend informed me that i can buy the isolation of him (for his cafe , he payed 66€ per square meter, working hours included, so i guess i will end up with a nice 2nd hand price)
So since the window will be very hard to do, i guess i'll "just" buy a piece that covers 3/4 of the wall area on the left of the drumkit, that should somewhat "limit" the strong reflections that otherwise occur at the flat, hard wall.

I know it's a very cheap solution, but hey...

So i cover the isolation with cloth, and attach the plasterboard to the wall with nails or something...
But then there will still be a small layer (like 3mm) of emptyness between the plasterboard and the wall, i hope that wont give bad effects, and probably this will also cause a lot of vibration?

[Deluks]

I think the 'plaster-with-yellow-stuff' on it is actually rockwool covered plasterboard, I'd suggest putting it against existing walls with the rockwool on the inside, not facing into the room.
You'll need to put wooden 'studs' against the wall and fix the plaster board to that somehow
Your priority is stopping sound from leaving the room if your neighbours will complain...treatment will come after. Some homemade traps will help tighten up the sound that you hear whilst playing, although that bookshelf thing on the left might do a reasonable job by itself.

What your trying to do isn't impossible, and that rockwool/plasterboard stuff that your friend has will give good results if properly constructed. The best thing you can do right now is read read read everything on this site, then you should have a good idea of exactly what you need to do.

[bert Stoltenborg]

Dieter,

This stuff you got from your friend must have a name.
When he has a bar, he probably had to isolate it conform Belgian environmental law, which is similar to the Dutch wet milieubeheer.

If his bar is isolated by a professional, your material could be something like Phonotech, Nevima, Acousticon building elemaents. They can be really good at sound reduction. Seeing the price confims my thought.

Try to figure out if this is the case.

If you can come up with the exact data about the stuff we can really help you with advice.

Groeten,

Bert

[Dan Fitzpatrick]

Don't know if you have seen this

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=239

this is a window plug design knightfly updated only a couple of days ago. there is no guarantee that it will do what you need, because the sound may get to your neighbor thru the building etc. but i guarantee it's a big PART of the problem, and it's very cheap and could be done in just a few hours. i'm planning to make one myself as a temporary measure before i build my "real" room.

so why not try that, and it might be a good idea to show it to your neighbor so he knows you're making an effort ... the psychological effect might be worth a few db too! if it doesn't help then you're not out much. a cheap experiment that may work.

dan

[Dieter@be]

When he has a bar, he probably had to isolate it conform Belgian environmental law, which is similar to the Dutch wet milieubeheer.

If his bar is isolated by a professional, your material could be something like Phonotech, Nevima, Acousticon building elemaents. They can be really good at sound reduction. Seeing the price confims my thought.

Try to figure out if this is the case.

If you can come up with the exact data about the stuff we can really help you with advice.

Groeten,

Bert

I dont know if the building is really 100% "clean", i think not, its basicly a bar (jeugdhuis), that they made out of an already existing hangar/"magazine", and this is how i understood it: "we "just" added the isolation to improve..." so i dont know if its done by a pro, or if its good stuff, or... also the price of 66€ per square meter includes working hours btw
But i'll ask for details about it and try to get a picture of it somehow

[Dieter@be]

Dan, nice idea, my window is actually 2 windows next to each other, but, this thing looks ok to me, but i'll need to read it a few more times to fully comprehend it