Hi, I've been learning a lot from this forum over the last few weeks, and would love to get your advice/suggestions on what I have so far for this garage conversion. I would really appreciate any help you could give me.
It is an existing 20'x20' detatched garage at the back of the house with a peaked roof 13' high in the center and the walls just over 8' high where they meet the roof.The aim is to build a "double wall" studio with good isolation and soundproofing to record a variety of bands and some acoustic artists.
The garage is pretty well isolated at the back of the house in a fairly quiet
residential neighbourhood with not too much street noise.There will be some fairly loud rock music being recorded from time to time.Oh, by the way, the garage door is going to be taken out and framed in.
I have attatched a floorplan which I'd love to find out if there any major oversights or bad ideas on, and a cross section which I stole/borrowed the basic idea from another member on on older thread.(member name-egcc-
thanks!)from. Here are some of my main questions/concerns.
1) Should I float just one floor and then float the "window" wall and iso booth (room 2) and soundlock on top of that floor, or build all the walls first and then float seperate floors for the control room and live rooms? As you can see from the drawing, I intend to float the floor inside of the main "double" walls as opposed to building those walls on top of the floated floor.I hope I'm explaining it o.k.
2) I was thinking of adding drywall to the inside of the exterior wall,between the studs. Do you thing adding that bit of extra density to the outside leaf will help much? Its a lot of extra work and I want to make sure its worth it. That existing exterior leaf is stucco on 3/4" lumber, not solid, but a 1X6 nailed to the studs diagonally.I'll try to post a photo.
3) Concerning putting mineral wool up in between the roof joists (as well as the "new" ceiling joists), I read somewhere that you should vent the roof to prevent moist air collecting and causing wood rot and mildew. If I vent to the outside, wont that greatly hurt the effectiveness of the two leaf system?
4)Does anyone know a good source for rubber in Los Angeles for the pads to float the floor and walls on? I did search around here, honest, but to no avail.
5) Can anyone refer me to a good electrician in L.A? Preferably someone who knows a bit about wiring a studio.
I think thats enough for now. I'm sure I'll have a ton more questions as I go along. Thank you all so much for any advice. Now to try to attach those files...
Cheers, Aggy
New garage studio design- would love your input
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aggybass
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nukmusic
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aggybass
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Hey Dr,
Damn, I like your floorplan much better. Is this your personal studio? Can't afford to put a bathroom in, but it would be handy to not have to walk over to the house all the time. Do you see any fundamental floors in my layout? I like the design I have, but I'm not too sure about the shape of the control room. Let me know if you think there is something you see in my plan that
is particurlarly bad.
Cheers,
Ag
Damn, I like your floorplan much better. Is this your personal studio? Can't afford to put a bathroom in, but it would be handy to not have to walk over to the house all the time. Do you see any fundamental floors in my layout? I like the design I have, but I'm not too sure about the shape of the control room. Let me know if you think there is something you see in my plan that
is particurlarly bad.
Cheers,
Ag
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sharward
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aggybass
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Yeah, I had been thinking about dropping a flat ceiling in the control room which slopes slightly up to the back. I've got to do some research on how much it should slope. I'm gonna have to do some creative framing to drop the ceiling off those ceiling joists, but it all good fun. I'm guessing that I should leave those 2x8 ceiling joists open (not sheeted with drywall), and just put soundboard/drywall on the final dropped ceiling. That way I don't create an extra leaf, which I'm assuming would be bad to have above the control room, right?
Also, I've got another problem that I've just come across. I had said in my original post that the exterior wall was stucco on some kind of 1x6lumber on 2x4 wall framing. It turns out that was just in a small area, and for the most part, the garage is just stucco on the outside of the studs.The back of the stucco is not super flat, so if I try to put my drywall strips between the studs onto the back of the stucco, it will not sit completely flat, leaving little air pockets here and there. Is that a no-no? Would I be better of just leaving the outer leaf as just stucco?
Once again, thanks for your advice.
Cheers,
Ag
Also, I've got another problem that I've just come across. I had said in my original post that the exterior wall was stucco on some kind of 1x6lumber on 2x4 wall framing. It turns out that was just in a small area, and for the most part, the garage is just stucco on the outside of the studs.The back of the stucco is not super flat, so if I try to put my drywall strips between the studs onto the back of the stucco, it will not sit completely flat, leaving little air pockets here and there. Is that a no-no? Would I be better of just leaving the outer leaf as just stucco?
Once again, thanks for your advice.
Cheers,
Ag
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nukmusic
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http://mi2.bpcdn.us/nukmusic/DOS2005.JPGaggybass wrote:Hey Dr,
Damn, I like your floorplan much better. Is this your personal studio? Can't afford to put a bathroom in, but it would be handy to not have to walk over to the house all the time. Do you see any fundamental floors in my layout? I like the design I have, but I'm not too sure about the shape of the control room. Let me know if you think there is something you see in my plan that
is particurlarly bad.
Cheers,
Ag
thanks to the folks on this forum
but let me try............
Bass trap in the rear corner(trangle) of the CR.
I would build the new walls on top of the floating floor.
I would try not the connect the new ceiling with the existing ceiling/roof if possible.
trying to create a new box inside an old box with the only part of the new box touching the old box is the floating floor.
I would try not to allow any part of of the CR walls to touch/connect to "ROOM 1" walls
Docta'J
http://www.nukmusiccompany.com
http://www.nukmusiccompany.com
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aggybass
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I'll definitely put a bass trap in the back of the control room.Any idea what kind of pitch that sloped ceiling in the CR should be?
I thought it would be o.k to connect the inner studs to the existing structure
because the walls and dropped ceiling will all have resilient channel. Doesn't this give me the isolation I need?
Still trying to decide between walls on the floated floor floor or floated floor inside the walls. Again, don't I have the isolation I need because of the resilient channel ? One thing that was worrying me about not building the walls on the floor, was not having enough weight on the floating floor. I havn't done my calculations yet for the neoprene pucks, so I guess that will help me decide.
Glad you made the point about keeping total seperation between the live room and the CR.I see how I might have screwed that up in a couple of places.
Anybody got any thoughts on my previous question about strips of drywall between the existing wall studs to give the outer leaf some extra density?
The question being; the back of the stucco is a little uneven, so will that be a huge problem attatching the drywall to it and not having a perfect tight seal between stucco and drywall?Would I be better of having just stucco and nothing else on the outer leaf? The stucco is about 1/2" thick. Maybe I could put another layer of drywall on the inner leaf to give it more density.
Just one more(for now!) Is it a good idea to do my drywall strips trick on the existing roof , again to give the outer leaf some density?
Thanks for your replies.
Cheers, Ag
I thought it would be o.k to connect the inner studs to the existing structure
because the walls and dropped ceiling will all have resilient channel. Doesn't this give me the isolation I need?
Still trying to decide between walls on the floated floor floor or floated floor inside the walls. Again, don't I have the isolation I need because of the resilient channel ? One thing that was worrying me about not building the walls on the floor, was not having enough weight on the floating floor. I havn't done my calculations yet for the neoprene pucks, so I guess that will help me decide.
Glad you made the point about keeping total seperation between the live room and the CR.I see how I might have screwed that up in a couple of places.
Anybody got any thoughts on my previous question about strips of drywall between the existing wall studs to give the outer leaf some extra density?
The question being; the back of the stucco is a little uneven, so will that be a huge problem attatching the drywall to it and not having a perfect tight seal between stucco and drywall?Would I be better of having just stucco and nothing else on the outer leaf? The stucco is about 1/2" thick. Maybe I could put another layer of drywall on the inner leaf to give it more density.
Just one more(for now!) Is it a good idea to do my drywall strips trick on the existing roof , again to give the outer leaf some density?
Thanks for your replies.
Cheers, Ag
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knightfly
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Strips between studs - if your stucco is that uneven, you should FIX it before trying to put inserts between studs - one way is to get a wide drywall knife (like 12") and mix up some slightly sloppy drywall mud, smear it liberally over the stucco, and while it's still very wet press the first layer of gypsum into the cavity until the mud RUNS OUT around the edges; then smooth off the excess, add the second layer, and fasten both in place with screwed in cleats fastened to the studs.
If you put added layers in place WITHOUT doing this, you will create a miniature mass-air-mass resonance in the wall; this is true even for a 1-2 mm space - each change in the space between layers affects the resonant frequency, but you have to be a virtually ZERO space before it goes away. Stucco has about the same density as gypsum wallboard (sheet rock) so 1/2" won't do much; the extra two layers of 5/8 rock inside, combined with at least 10-12 inches of space (insulation, air) between the innermost panel surfaces, will help isolation quite a bit.
If you're doing separate inner frames, work hard to eliminate ANY hard contact between inner structure and outer; while RC can help mids/highs, it does nothing for low frequencies; this is controlled entirely by mass-air-mass, meaning same distance between leaves = same Transmission Loss, period. (Actually, type/amount of insulation changes things a bit, and of course changing the masses themselves)
I would DEFINITELY NOT use your first floor plan; that rear corner will take quite a bit of trapping, because any sound wave (down to about 300 hZ or so) that enters a 90 degree corner will be reflected back parallel to the incident wave; in other words, right back atcha. Also, your side walls - if you break out your protractor and draw in a desk, chair, and speakers on stands behind the desk, then do some basic ray tracing, you'll see that both of those side walls will need deep absorption to avoid serious early reflection problems - thing is, one side's a WINDOW.
That's the main stuff I see so far, gotta run... Steve
If you put added layers in place WITHOUT doing this, you will create a miniature mass-air-mass resonance in the wall; this is true even for a 1-2 mm space - each change in the space between layers affects the resonant frequency, but you have to be a virtually ZERO space before it goes away. Stucco has about the same density as gypsum wallboard (sheet rock) so 1/2" won't do much; the extra two layers of 5/8 rock inside, combined with at least 10-12 inches of space (insulation, air) between the innermost panel surfaces, will help isolation quite a bit.
If you're doing separate inner frames, work hard to eliminate ANY hard contact between inner structure and outer; while RC can help mids/highs, it does nothing for low frequencies; this is controlled entirely by mass-air-mass, meaning same distance between leaves = same Transmission Loss, period. (Actually, type/amount of insulation changes things a bit, and of course changing the masses themselves)
I would DEFINITELY NOT use your first floor plan; that rear corner will take quite a bit of trapping, because any sound wave (down to about 300 hZ or so) that enters a 90 degree corner will be reflected back parallel to the incident wave; in other words, right back atcha. Also, your side walls - if you break out your protractor and draw in a desk, chair, and speakers on stands behind the desk, then do some basic ray tracing, you'll see that both of those side walls will need deep absorption to avoid serious early reflection problems - thing is, one side's a WINDOW.
That's the main stuff I see so far, gotta run... Steve
Soooo, when a Musician dies, do they hear the white noise at the end of the tunnel??!? Hmmmm...
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aggybass
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Thanks Steve,
I'm working on re-doing the floor plan since it seems from yours and others posts, that the control room could be problematic. I'll post drawings soon.
I liked your mud solution for evening out the drywall strips, but I don't think I trust myself to float the mud evenly enough to not get some air gaps when I apply the drywall. I actually typed it wrong and theres over 1" of stucco there. Theres a stucco guy coming to do some other patching and I was going to see if he can add on some extra thickness to that existing stucco.I'm not sure if thats possible, but it might be a better option than trying to do the drywall strips and not doing it perfect.
I guess I was wrong about the resilient channel giving me the isolation I need (low end), so I'll be re- thinking attatching the top off the walls to the existing roof.
Some more questions(hope you all dont mind);
1) Should I add some more density to the existing roof? I'll have the dropped ceiling in there with a good amount of air space and a couple of layers as the inner leaf. The existing roof is three or four layers of shingle on 1x8 lumber. That lumber has a fair few gaps in it though. Maybe I should just acoustic caulk it all to make it airtight? There will be mineral wool beween the rafters as well as between the (dropped) ceiling joists.
2) Should I vent the roof? I'm in California.
3)Could I put neoprene pucks on the top plate of the wall framing and pressure fit the walls between ceiling and floor? this would give good seperation, no?
4)Still a bit confused about the advantages of building the walls on top of the floating floor over building them around the floating floor on rubber
pucks.I get good seperation either way right?
5)If I do manage to build the room within a room with no connection, does that negate the need for resilient channel?
I apologize for all the questions, but I've already started demolition, and I dont want to make any major mistakes. I only recently found this site, and already you guys have helped me to not do some things wrong.
Cheers,
Ag
I'm working on re-doing the floor plan since it seems from yours and others posts, that the control room could be problematic. I'll post drawings soon.
I liked your mud solution for evening out the drywall strips, but I don't think I trust myself to float the mud evenly enough to not get some air gaps when I apply the drywall. I actually typed it wrong and theres over 1" of stucco there. Theres a stucco guy coming to do some other patching and I was going to see if he can add on some extra thickness to that existing stucco.I'm not sure if thats possible, but it might be a better option than trying to do the drywall strips and not doing it perfect.
I guess I was wrong about the resilient channel giving me the isolation I need (low end), so I'll be re- thinking attatching the top off the walls to the existing roof.
Some more questions(hope you all dont mind);
1) Should I add some more density to the existing roof? I'll have the dropped ceiling in there with a good amount of air space and a couple of layers as the inner leaf. The existing roof is three or four layers of shingle on 1x8 lumber. That lumber has a fair few gaps in it though. Maybe I should just acoustic caulk it all to make it airtight? There will be mineral wool beween the rafters as well as between the (dropped) ceiling joists.
2) Should I vent the roof? I'm in California.
3)Could I put neoprene pucks on the top plate of the wall framing and pressure fit the walls between ceiling and floor? this would give good seperation, no?
4)Still a bit confused about the advantages of building the walls on top of the floating floor over building them around the floating floor on rubber
pucks.I get good seperation either way right?
5)If I do manage to build the room within a room with no connection, does that negate the need for resilient channel?
I apologize for all the questions, but I've already started demolition, and I dont want to make any major mistakes. I only recently found this site, and already you guys have helped me to not do some things wrong.
Cheers,
Ag