live room ceiling

aschatzb · Post by **aschatzb** » Wed Jul 27, 2005 2:55 am

Hello Everyone,

I've got a question concerning the shape of my liveroom ceiling.
I've created a few images to help illustrate...

I'm considering two options:

1) Vaulted cathedral Ceiling. The shell of the building has a vaulted cathedral, and I was planning on just following the existing ceiling shape when I put the secondary ceiling in place, maximizing ceiling height.

2) For reasons of simplicity the builder who is helping me would like me to consider a shed type ceiling. If we do this, I'll be losing a bit of volume in the room, however the ceilings are already pretty high (24' at the peak).

Is one shape better than the other in terms of acoustics? Will one sound quite different than the other?

I'm hoping to get some big drum sounds out of this room... Though the live room will be used to track just about everything.

Any suggestions??? thank you:) andrew

aschatzb · Post by **aschatzb** » Thu Jul 28, 2005 11:30 pm

Hello, I'm still looking for some suggestions:) I start construction on Aug. 8th. So no pressure;)

thank you,

andrew

tmix · Post by **tmix** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 12:39 am

I have studied different ceiling designs, and about the only thing I can tell you is, for recording purposes the shed type ceiling would probablywork better.
The vaulted ceiling focuses the sound bouncing around toward the center of the room. It can cause weird phase issues if the room has a lot of hard surfaces.
I am a recording drummer myself and I have found my best tracks are those where I was not picking up a lot of ceiling reflected sound ( where it confused the stereo imaging), but primarily the kit plus some floor reflections from the snare and toms.

My opinion obviously.

Tom

aschatzb · Post by **aschatzb** » Fri Jul 29, 2005 2:47 am

Hey Tom,

thanks so much for your input. I was worried about some acoustic issues with the cathedral. Ultimately I plan on building acoustic panels that will hang down from the ceiling to help with some reflection.

I'm still interested to hear if anyone believes having more ceiling height would worth dealing with some reflection/phase issues???

andrew

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 5:27 am

You've come as close to a perfect cube as you could with splayed surfaces; I would NOT build ANY of those rooms, lost volume or NO lost volume. One dimension of 21', an average height of 21', and an average width of 20' - a TON of acoustic treatment and you STILL won't like what comes out of that room.

You need to go here

http://forum.studiotips.com/index.php

Join the forum so you can download stuff -

Then go here

http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?t=497

And download modesv2.xls -

There are some instructions as part of the file, I can help you more if you get stuck - you MUST enable Macros, or it won't work, and it won't recalculate until you do [ctrl]s, [ctrl]c - but I use this sheet every day, Jeff did a really nice job on it.

Hint - room dim's that are ODD #'s of feet, and differ by 2', tend to have good modal characteristics - ie: 21x19x17 feet.

IF you want a live sounding room, you could still use the vault; but you would need to hang some large poly's centered along the ridge... Steve

aschatzb · Post by **aschatzb** » Sat Jul 30, 2005 6:38 am

Hey Steve,

thanks for dropping in;)

The room design is actually much more complicated than I originally posted. I was trying to simplify things in or to discuss the shape of the ceiling. I guess I got in trouble there...

In any case, I can't really change the shape or the ceiling height in the room at this point.

If we can enter the land of make believe and pretend I've got an ideal room size going on, what ceiling should I choose (shed or cathedral)?

thanks:)

andrew

aschatzb · Post by **aschatzb** » Tue Aug 02, 2005 10:45 pm

any ideas? anyone?

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 2:49 pm

Can you be more specific about the "complicated" part; maybe a pic or two? Hate to tell you one thing and find out there was something else involved that made it all wrong... Steve

aschatzb · Post by **aschatzb** » Wed Aug 03, 2005 11:27 pm

Hello,

Here's a better image of what's going on in the live room. Hopefully this will clear a few things up?:)

(By the way, I'm flipping out a little right now, my neighbor just cut down this beautiful poplar which provided a ton a good shade in my control room. My non-tempered laminated glass is probably all going to start shattering any moment now...)

thanks,

andrew

aschatzb · Post by **aschatzb** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 8:05 am

Anyone?

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 3:40 pm

I keep thinking I'd posted back on this, and keep seeing NOTHING; wierd, must be going (even) crazy (er) -

I would go with the straight roof, and maybe hang a couple 4x8 pieces of 1/4 ply up there by their edges to form poly's to break up the highest peak. If you can change the SHAPE of the ceiling, why couldn't you LOWER it a bit to improve the room ratios? Steve

aschatzb · Post by **aschatzb** » Fri Aug 05, 2005 9:32 pm

Hey Steve,

You going crazy man? I don't believe it...

I can't change the ceiling because of the windows. As it is, I've only got just enough space to get the joist into place, with 2 layers of 5/8's.

Unless I build some window wells, which then become very time consuming with framing and dealing with gyps details. I really want to create the most effective isolation I can, and adding the window well could potentially create a weakness in those walls.

How do you imagine the 4x8 sheets of plywood hanging? Are they covered in fabric? Just curious about your vision for that:)

thanks again,

andrew

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Sat Aug 06, 2005 7:47 pm

Nope; just stain full sheets, and (simplest but not best) drill three holes along each long edge, one in the center of the edge and one at each end - hang the sheets by these holes with 1/8" metal cable, the plywood will form a natural polycylindric shape that provides a convex dispersal surface. You could hang almost three of these across the high peak of your roof to get rid of the focussing effect.

A better way is to use three lengths of 2x4 for "ribs", cut each one into an elliptical shape

http://home.att.net/~waterfront-woods/A ... llipse.htm

and in either case, lay 3-1/2" insulation batts (common household fiberglass works fine) on top of the structure to damp vibrations in the panels.

If you wanted, with that tall a ceiling you could make several of these in different dimensions so your entire ceiling was essentially diffusive... Steve

aschatzb · Post by **aschatzb** » Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:07 am

Thanks again steve:) I dig your idea for the panels. I've been planning on doing something of this nature, but haven't had the definitive plan. I've even considered doing some different shapes to create an abstract haning ceiling... Perhaps even some panels shaped like leaves (I'm planning a fall like color scheme for the studio).

Thanks again, I'm relieved to finally have the plan together (starting construction on Monday). Building those 22' secondary walls is gonna suck. Perhaps having that bigger air space between the structural ceiling and the secondary ceiling will create even better isolation?

take care,

andrew

the dreamer · Post by **the dreamer** » Sun Aug 07, 2005 1:12 am

Yes, generally more air is better isolation.

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