Drumroom design

[huddo]

Well, here goes!! After sorting out the drawing attachments (I hope), I'd like to submit some drawings of this new structure. Dimensions are determined by site, and council regulations. I have neighbours 5 metres away.The room must be able to be used at any time for drum practice, drum recording, small group rehersal and recording. The studio will also be used as a teaching studio, with two kits set up. I have had a series of db readings done.Drums were peaking( over a 5 minute period) at Lmax 108.8 db , and drums and bass at L max 110.7 db. Drums and bass were producing 78 db at 63hz averaged over a 5 minute period, and 90 db at 125hz over 5 minutes. Minimum backgrounds are around the 40 db mark. Considering these figures, I've gone for an stc in the high 70's to mid 80's.Hopefully, I'm in the ballpark!! My budget for the TOTAL project (including room treatment and all finishing) is about AU$50,000. Iknow the control room is a compromise, but it's not the focus of this project.I have a few other questions, but I think I'll leave them for a later date. Talk soon- thanks!!!

[the dreamer]

Hi,
I wonder why you build the walls beside the floor in a coupling way?
It would give you much better isolation if you also decouple them (on the floor).
Below I attached a detail of how I'm going to build my CR. Pretty much the same as Paul W's Bombshelter.
Eric Desart helped both of us with getting it on the right track! (1000² thanks Eric! )

The difference to yours is, the spring is Sylomer and the upper mass is concrete. This also results in a much better live/deadload ratio as the mass is heavy due to being concrete and also the walls and ceilings on it add to the weight.
Eric is saying a lot about how to decouple with rubber/elastomers in my thread: http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?t=1586
Also Paul shares what he learned during his build.

I read and planned for a really long time now and I'm glad I did, because if I build that 1,5 year ago, my studio wouldn't be usable at nights!
But finally yesterday I started to cut the Sylomer, so the ship left the harbour I guess
Be very careful how you do the floating floor, if done wrong you probably make things worse!

As you are decoupling with EPDM maybe Aarons thread is a good read:
http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=839
and Keith/Sharward has some Data somewhere about a certain load/compression ratio. Can't remember where, maybe in his construction thread.

Florian

[huddo]

Thanks for the reply Dreamer. One of my questions was about the base plates of the walls. It's good to get more info on this crucial part of the studio design. I've just spent the last 4 hours reading Ear's site and Paul Woodlock's design. Now I've got a lot more to think about.

[sharward]

Hi Huddo,

Very nice hand drawings.

If I'm interpreting your floating floor system correctly, it looks like you're planning to use Auralex U-boats to float a concrete floor. Auralex has gone on record not recommending their product for that.

Plus, see my post in the "Mason Industries' FSN Floating Floor Concrete Slab Test Data" thread... Especially the semi-hidden document that clarifies the lack of testing on U-boats.

Take it from me, who ran with the EPDM recommendation from the get-go, purchased a chunk of it, and then paid several hundred dollars to have it compression tested at a machine shop: Don't use a product that hasn't been tested by an independent lab and has proven itself.

Yes, that includes (or, should I say, excludes) EPDM.

There may be some folks on this board who will disagree with me here. This is just my opinion. Stick with products that are proven and have the testing specs and documentation to prove it.

For alternatives, check out Mason Industries and Kinetics Noise Control. They've got a lot of test results.

I don't have time for untested products for my project -- especially something that can't be undone, like floating floor pucks. Do you?

For the record, I'm not knocking all Auralex products... But I am knocking the U-boat product due to its lack of test data.

I'm not against floating floors in general. I definitely debated the merits of one in my project for a very long time, as my project thread will surely attest.

Your isolation requirements -- STC in the mid-80s??? -- may require you to go to the Woodlock Extreme.

Make sure, whatever you do, that you build your walls, and ceiling, and (if you decide to) your floating floor so that they're all in the same league in terms of isolation. As you may already know, if you cut a corner in one of these areas, you cut a corner of the entire project.

I hope that this all makes sense. I'm guilty of copying and pasting from two past posts in another thread, so the continuity may be a bit off.

[huddo]

What did we do before the internet? I can't believe the INCREDIBLE amount of info available. It's great to talk to guys who are a lot further down the track than me!! Just a quick question before I spend the rest of the night checking out concrete floor jacking systems and fishing about for sylomer specs and general info ; what do any of you guys think about this ?; It seems that using a floor jacking system would be a good idea for a new structure such as the one I'm planning but I can't help but think about that undamped airspace between the concrete base slab and the raised concrete floor ,as opposed to the beautifully dampened structure by Paul Woodlock. Is there a massive cost difference between these two methods?

[the dreamer]

I'm not sure if I understand what you mean (maybe my english) but to damp the airspace you just need a little rockwool...won't eat you up financially!

What you really need to determine is the actual need of sounproofing.
Sharward summed that up...no point in making a concrete-floating floor when the walls are thin.

In my CR I will have 4 layers of 15mm drywall and as you know PaulW has thinner but even more!

How good is the isolation of the existing structure? Can you have someone going to the critical neighbours with a SPL-meter while you play drums?

[sharward]

I'm not sure if I understand what you mean (maybe my english) but to damp the airspace you just need a little rockwool...won't eat you up financially!

Florian, he's talking about that fact that when you use a "jack up" floating concrete floor system, such as those offered by Kinetics Noise Control or Mason Industries, discussed in a thread that I linked above, it is impossible to add damping insulation under the floated slab. The top slab is poured directly onto the bottom slab (separated by plastic only) and then the floor is raised upt o 4 inches.

Good point, huddo -- one that I had in the back of my mind that whole time and that I assumed wouldn't be much of an issue due to its thickness. But since my acoustic engineering firm told me, basically, that I didn't need to float, I haven't given it much thought since!

What you really need to determine is the actual need of sounproofing.
Sharward summed that up...no point in making a concrete-floating floor when the walls are thin.

Amen to that.

In my CR I will have 4 layers of 15mm drywall and as you know PaulW has thinner but even more!

How good is the isolation of the existing structure? Can you have someone going to the critical neighbours with a SPL-meter while you play drums?

Is that question intended for me, huddo? If so, I haven't done those tests yet. But I plan to play with other musicians, with bass and everything, so I haven't thought about assembling a whole freakin' band to conduct such a test! I've been an angel of a neighbor -- my drum kit has been "gig bagged" ever since I moved in over a year ago , in part to establish an excellent track record with the neighbors.

I'm basically assuming my existing soundproofing sucks and that I have to do a lot to make it work!

Is there a massive cost difference between these two methods?

I think the jack-up system is more expensive . . . But, again, I dropped it once I had the permission slip not to float.

[the dreamer]

Sharward wrote:

Florian, he's talking about that fact that when you use a "jack up" floating concrete floor system, such as those offered by Kinetics Noise Control or Mason Industries, discussed in a thread that I linked above, it is impossible to add damping insulation under the floated slab. The top slab is poured directly onto the bottom slab (separated by plastic only) and then the floor is raised upt o 4 inches.

Thanks 4 clearing that up Keith/Kieth(how's your name spelled, saw both versions? )

Is that question intended for me, huddo?

Was not Huddo's question but mine.... directed to Huddo!


Florian

[huddo]

Sorry guys, I haven't been keeping an eye on the forum these past two days. Yes Sharward, that's what I was talking about in regard to the jack up concrete slab. The only downside I can see to Paul Woodlock's floor, is that you have to leave your forming ply in place. Iknow I'm being picky here, and in the grand scheme of things it probably doesn't matter a damn!!!! I guess I'm a little paranoid about termites and the general waterproofing situation. On another related matter, getting technical specs on Sylomer seems to be difficult. I've had no joy from the supplier here in Oz, and have enough to do without translating the info that's in German on the net. Also , does anyone know if Paul Woodlock's floor calcs and spreadsheet survived from the Yahoo forum? Any ideas in working out zoning for loadings on the floating would be much appreciated. So, after so many questions , here's some readings I've had done in preparation for my project. I hope this all fits.

[huddo]

Does this need to be a bit bigger?

[the dreamer]

huddo, Getzner (manufacturer of Sylomer www.getzner.at ...go into getzner werkstoffe) will happily calculate the floor for you! They did this for me too. But make sure they understand the need for a natural frequency of around 10Hz.
I bet they can send you the specs in english too.

Florian

[sharward]

Thanks for keeping those images "not too wide."

anyone know if Paul Woodlock's floor calcs and spreadsheet survived from the Yahoo forum?

Yes, they did -- Studio Tips has an archive of the Yahoo! group posts, including this thread started 2/8/2004. (I'm sure there are others -- I just don't have time to search any more right now.)

Hope that helps!

--Keith