drum room in basement

[Dan Fitzpatrick]

you might want to check out this thread

http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?p=20912#20912

brian is someone who really knows what he is talking about, and you can glean some details about RC and also RSIC clips, which he prefers

... note that he specifies 25 guage RC as the good stuff (i guess there is other stiffer RC that looks the same but is thicker and not as good.)

[foggie]

you might want to check out this thread

http://forum.studiotips.com/viewtopic.php?p=20912#20912

brian is someone who really knows what he is talking about, and you can glean some details about RC and also RSIC clips, which he prefers

... note that he specifies 25 guage RC as the good stuff (i guess there is other stiffer RC that looks the same but is thicker and not as good.)

Thanks again, great info.

Well I purchased all the RC's and caulking and finished all the electrical.

I also just finished bringing all of the rock into the basement. The 8' sheets no problem but the 12' sheets (which have two sheets tapped together) holy hanna. I won't EVER be doing that again! I would have gladly paid the extra $$ to have it delivered into my basement - 50 sheets = 25 trips from the driveway down a hill to the basement, oh man. Probably common knowledge here but live and learn I guess. Thank goodness I have a lift for installing.

Anyway, I’m off to Germany for a week (work related) and will return to the project when I return. I will post some pics as well.

I have a question regarding screws. What length should be used on the first layer of rock that's attached to the RC's (I assume the screw gets counter-sunk into the rock) and then what length is used on the second layer of rock (this I assume also gets attached to the RC's)

Regards,
Steve

[Dan Fitzpatrick]

foggie,

i've come to the conclusion i gave some wrong advice about the RC on the ceiling.

From what i understand now there is virtually no difference between a wall with 2x4 studs and 2x12 studs or whatever, if the drywall is directly attached. so, even if your space is a foot or whatever, you need to decouple with RC or something for maximum performance.

So, RC would definitely be good to use on the ceiling regardless of how much space there is. I'm sorry for any disaster that my mistaken understanding may have caused you. i've edited my earlier post to reflect this.

Dan

[foggie]

foggie,

i've come to the conclusion i gave some wrong advice about the RC on the ceiling.

From what i understand now there is virtually no difference between a wall with 2x4 studs and 2x12 studs or whatever, if the drywall is directly attached. so, even if your space is a foot or whatever, you need to decouple with RC or something for maximum performance.

So, RC would definitely be good to use on the ceiling regardless of how much space there is. I'm sorry for any disaster that my mistaken understanding may have caused you. i've edited my earlier post to reflect this.

Dan

No worries Dan. I am RC'ing everything.

[foggie]

I have all the channels up and am ready to rock today (I still have some insulting touch up). Although, is it necessary when putting on the second layer of rock to orientate the seam opposite form the first layer e.g. first layer seam goes horizontal the second layer seam goes vertical? I plan on leaving .25in gap at all of the joints and caulking with acoustic sealant.

The black box is where the two HVAC (supply+cold air) runs enter and exit the room. I’ll have to use one of the runs for a cold air return for this room (code). I have already cut the opening in the sheetmetal but made a wooden plenum that goes up to the sheetmetal which is sealed off. Basically I cut the square in the sheetmetal then applied this thick (.25in) membrane (used on outside walls for waterproofing) to cover it / seal it (has an adhesive). There is about 5 inches of air space from the bottom of the sheetmetal to the framing so the vent will use and attach to this “box” or plenum at the bottom and use for the cold air return. Anyway this is all sealed off from the sheetmetal all the way through the plenum as I put additional rubber membranes in between the 2x4’s I used to make the plenum. So when I move or I need this to be “active” I can just cut all the seal’s?

I did this so as to cut down on sound transmission through the hvac and thinking I really won’t need this cold air return since the door will be remain open to this room unless it is being used. As I said I can always break the seals if needed. I do have a heat run which will probably cause enough problems. However, I plan on making a heavy duty “plug” assembly if you will, that I can insert into the vent when the room is being used.

A bit off topic, but with all of insulating and trying to obtain an “air tight” room, anyone have thoughts if this will this cause any adverse effects in general? e.g. moisture problems, air quality in this room or the rest of the house etc.?

Also, as far the amount of insulation in the cavities, from my findings here there should be enough so it is lightly compressed but not so stuffed to make it couple the other side. Should the insulation be flush with the studs, can it extend beyond the studs and if so by how much?

Thanks for any assistance / comments.

Steve

[knightfly]

Man, I completely missed this entire thread during my "honey-do campaign" - If you can cut/paste ALL your remaining questions/concerns into one post, I'll do my best to catch up in the next day or two; sorry... Steve

[foggie]

Man, I completely missed this entire thread during my "honey-do campaign" - If you can cut/paste ALL your remaining questions/concerns into one post, I'll do my best to catch up in the next day or two; sorry... Steve

Hey thanks for taking the time, I really appreciate everyone assistance. As I stated initially, I am trying to maximize what I have to work with both structurally and financially (which is little in comparison to most of the projects around here)

Well as of right now, these are the questions I have:

Insulation – As far as the amount of insulation in the cavities - from my findings here there should be enough so it is lightly compressed but not so stuffed to make it couple the other side. Should the insulation be flush with the studs, can it extend beyond the studs and if so by how much? I used R38 for the 2x10 (ceiling) and R19 for the 2x6 walls.

Also how important is that when handling / applying the insulation that you don’t compress it, bend it e.g. be “gentle” so to speak? The reason I ask is I had a friend help installing and he was whipping the stuff around like a rag doll. Weird question I know, but he was like “don’t worry about it, it’ll be fine”

Screws – I think I purchased 1in for the first layer and 1 5/8in for second layer (both fine threads). Is this correct? I used the coarse threads for hanging the channels and rock in other rooms etc, but thought the fine thread would be better for screwing the rock to the channels?

Caulking - I only have one adjoining or shared wall that has rock on the other side of my room (the others are exterior walls and the ceiling). I forgot to caulk the rock seams (from the backside) and where the rock meets the studs. Should I take everything off and do this?

Rock orientation - is it necessary when putting on the second layer of rock to orientate the seam opposite from the first layer e.g. first layer seam goes horizontal the second layer seam goes vertical? I plan on leaving .125in gap at all of the joints and caulking the seams with acoustic sealant.

Orientation of RC’s – does it matter if some of the channels switch “orientation” on a given wall, see pic? Also, some of the channels seem to be close to the stud (the short leg). When the rock goes on will it be pulled away, sort of center itself? Should I give some of the channels a tug

Door - I purchased a solid (wood) core interior door (haven’t installed anything). I’m thinking of exchanging it for an exterior metal solid core foam door instead?

It looks like for the closet, I will only put up one layer of rock because of space. Bad planning on my part. Still undecided though.

For the oak trim (baseboards and casements around windows and doors) should these be attached to the channels as well? I was thinking of installing short scraps of channels to the window + door framing for the trim to attach to?

Thanks, Steve

[knightfly]

Got one more 12-hour graveyard shift, but I'll catch all these tomorrow afternoon - please don't rush into anything before, there's a few important points here... Steve

[foggie]

I have another situation that I ran into. The three water pipes sit about just below (.125 - .25in) the channels mounting surface (where the rock is attached). If I attached the rock to the channels these pipes will be resting on the back side of the rock. I assume this is not good.

Possibilities - I could cut some material out off the bottom of the joists, but I’m a bit leery of that. Notching these to accept the water pipes would be ideal and maybe it’s ok? However one of the joists has a big hole for a drain pipe (through the middle of joist, which is reinforced with plywood on each side of the joist), so I’m a little concerned structurally of notching the three adjoining joist for the pipes?

Anyone?

Thanks!

[sharward]

I agree that this is not a good situation -- pipes as a flanking path will really hurt your isolation, not to menion the noise resulting from water flow getting transmitted to the room.

There are code restrictions in place around notching and boring of joists. See the illustration below (from Quality in Construction Manual: Guidelines for the Building & Inspetion Industries).

You may need to lower the ceiling a little for the pipes to clear in that area. However, make sure you maintain your minimum height requirements pursuant to code.

[foggie]

Sharward:

I agree that this is not a good situation -- pipes as a flanking path will really hurt your isolation, not to menion the noise resulting from water flow getting transmitted to the room.

There are code restrictions in place around notching and boring of joists. See the illustration below (from Quality in Construction Manual: Guidelines for the Building & Inspetion Industries).

You may need to lower the ceiling a little for the pipes to clear in that area. However, make sure you maintain your minimum height requirements pursuant to code.

Thank you! Very helpful.

Lowering the ceiling is an option, but I would have to take down all of the channels but more importantly I don't want to lose any more ceiling space (unless I have to). I think the ceiling unfinished is 8'-1ish". So by adding 2x4's to the joists (which is about what is need to get below the pipes) and then channels and finally two layers of rock I would loose 3in and that's with an unfinished floor. If it comes to that I will.

What problems would there be if the pipes were touching the backside of the first layer of rock?

Thanks!
Steve

[sharward]

Lowering the ceiling is an option, but I would have to take down all of the channels but more importantly I don't want to lose any more ceiling space (unless I have to). I think the ceiling unfinished is 8'-1ish". So by adding 2x4's to the joists (which is about what is need to get below the pipes) and then channels and finally two layers of rock I would loose 3in and that's with an unfinished floor. If it comes to that I will.

It may very well "come to that." Fortunately, I think you have enough headroom to meet code -- habitable spaces require, I believe, 7' 6" minimum vertical clearance. Keep in mind that's finished clearance. I understand your desire to maintain maximum headroom (Max Headroom?!), but losing 1 1/2" in that small area shouldn't matter much in the big scheme of things.

What problems would there be if the pipes were touching the backside of the first layer of rock?

I already said it -- flanking, flanking, and more flanking. No time to explain in detail, but any student of this forum knows that hard connections between leaves are no good. You're putting up your channels for a reason, right? Don't short-change yourself on this obstacle.

--Keith

[knightfly]

What problems would there be if the pipes were touching the backside of the first layer of rock?

IF the pipes went nowhere else (not to other areas needing to be isolated) the low end isolation wouldn't change with hard contact - this is almost entirely a function of the air gap between leaves. However, the midrange would suffer by about 12 dB in this case by NOT having resilient mounts.

Then there is the water noise and flanking problems; these DEMAND that you NOT let the pipes touch the back of the first layer of gypsum. If you can, post a sketch of what you intended for a method of dropping the ceiling at the pipe area, and I'll let you know whether it'll work.

Your earlier questions -

Insulation – As far as the amount of insulation in the cavities - from my findings here there should be enough so it is lightly compressed but not so stuffed to make it couple the other side. Should the insulation be flush with the studs, can it extend beyond the studs and if so by how much? I used R38 for the 2x10 (ceiling) and R19 for the 2x6 walls.

For 2x6 walls, up to about 1" of compression is fine for standard fiberglass building insulation; NOT for any of the higher compressed stuff such as rockwool, semi-rigid fiberglass, etc.

Also how important is that when handling / applying the insulation that you don’t compress it, bend it e.g. be “gentle” so to speak? The reason I ask is I had a friend help installing and he was whipping the stuff around like a rag doll. Weird question I know, but he was like “don’t worry about it, it’ll be fine”

Doing that will release more fibers into the air and make it even more necessary to wear masks and vacuum more often, but won't hurt the insulation in any measurable way (unless he's so vicious he destroys the batts

Screws – I think I purchased 1in for the first layer and 1 5/8in for second layer (both fine threads). Is this correct? I used the coarse threads for hanging the channels and rock in other rooms etc, but thought the fine thread would be better for screwing the rock to the channels?

Coarse threads are for attaching to wood, fine threads for attaching to either light steel studs OR Resilient Channel. Going into wood, you want at least twice as long screws as the gypsum you're fastening. Into steel, it's useless to have more than enough screw length to engage all the steel thickness with screw threads so 1/2" extra is fine. Just make sure you don't put any screws into RC where a framing member is behind the RC, or you'll hurt isolation a LOT.

Caulking - I only have one adjoining or shared wall that has rock on the other side of my room (the others are exterior walls and the ceiling). I forgot to caulk the rock seams (from the backside) and where the rock meets the studs. Should I take everything off and do this?

NOt necessary; all you need is a hermetic seal SOMEWHERE between the two areas. See this thread for some detail -

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... 3&start=15

Rock orientation - is it necessary when putting on the second layer of rock to orientate the seam opposite from the first layer e.g. first layer seam goes horizontal the second layer seam goes vertical? I plan on leaving .125in gap at all of the joints and caulking the seams with acoustic sealant.

Walls - for 2-layer walls, first layer goes vertical. Second layer goes horizontal. Placing first layer vertical improves strength, placing second layer horizontal improves looks (easier to get smoother, flatter surface) - between sheets seams can be mudded and taped instead of caulk. Perimeter should be done per the above link.

Orientation of RC’s – does it matter if some of the channels switch “orientation” on a given wall, see pic? Also, some of the channels seem to be close to the stud (the short leg). When the rock goes on will it be pulled away, sort of center itself? Should I give some of the channels a tug

RC should be installed on walls with the short leg DOWN and fastened to studs. Only exception to this is if you don't have room to fasten the BOTTOM RC, it can be done upside down. Leave about 1" gap from end of RC to adjoining wall, no need for fasteners between rock and RC closer than 2-3" from adjoining wall. Do a "Z" joint at corners, finish with flexible plastic inside corner, light mud/tape.

http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=20003

Door - I purchased a solid (wood) core interior door (haven’t installed anything). I’m thinking of exchanging it for an exterior metal solid core foam door instead?

Interior doors are typically 1-3/8" inch thick; with perfect seals, about STC 29. Exterior doors are 1-3/4" thick, solid wood would be about STC 30. IF the metal door you're looking at has better specs, fine; but you'd get more by using TWO doors separated by a couple feet of air space (vestibule) if you have the space. Even separate wall frames and separate doors separated by a few inches will beat ANY single door costing less than $5k. - SEALS are the weak point.

It looks like for the closet, I will only put up one layer of rock because of space. Bad planning on my part. Still undecided though.

?? - Did I miss a floor plan?

For the oak trim (baseboards and casements around windows and doors) should these be attached to the channels as well? I was thinking of installing short scraps of channels to the window + door framing for the trim to attach to?

They can attach to the channels or to solid structure, but not BOTH. Heavy-based moldings could conceivably attach thru their base to solid structure (floor) leaving a small air space for zero hard contact, but it's usually easier to attach to the floated wall (leaving a small gap to the floor or ceiling)

HTH... Steve

[foggie]

knightfly, great, thanks for the help and the links were a big help as well.

As “simple” as many of the techniques and processes are for many people here, until you actually get your hands into this, it’s much more complicated than one would expect (just as many things are the first time). Even in my fairly straightforward situation, there are many obstacles to overcome. I guess my point here is a lot of this is still confusing until you actually go through the process. Even with the wealth of info and specific details made available here I really appreciate the time people take to answer what I’m sure are redundant questions

As far as the pipes go, I don’t think I’m going to drop the ceiling for a number of reasons that I won’t go into. However, I will either build another “box” (soffet) with channels OR stop the first layer of rock just short of the pipes, insulate and caulk everywhere in this area and have the second layer of rock cover the opening. I’m sure that’s not the recommended process anyone here would advise, but these are my options. Anything you care add to these "method"

Redundant question about caulking – You did answer this (“between sheets seams can be mudded”) but I left 1/8” – 1/4” gaps (they’re not tight) on the seams where two sheets of rock meet thinking I would caulk those (the ? area in pic). Should I caulk and then mud/tape these areas or can I just mud/tape/sand (basically is a gap I left too much and therefore not the way to do it)?

Additional question:
Also, when all said and done, is it correct to say that you are not suppose to tape/mud any of the perimeters (the red area/caulk in pic) even when finishing? How does this look aesthetically as opposed to mudded joint?

knightfly wrote:

Interior doors are typically 1-3/8" inch thick; with perfect seals, about STC 29. Exterior doors are 1-3/4" thick, solid wood would be about STC 30. IF the metal door you're looking at has better specs, fine; but you'd get more by using TWO doors separated by a couple feet of air space (vestibule) if you have the space. Even separate wall frames and separate doors separated by a few inches will beat ANY single door costing less than $5k. - SEALS are the weak point

I should have been more specific – I purchased a solid six panel door and was thinking that a solid core (wood/foam) exterior metal door would be better for several reasons. One, the exterior type door’s frame is wider and would fit better due to the width (e.g. 2x6 const. and multi layers of rock) as well as it has much better sealing than an interior type => An interior door seals are made up of basically moldings, Yes? Which one would you recommend

Thanks again,
Steve

[sharward]

I don’t think I’m going to drop the ceiling for a number of reasons that I won’t go into. However, I will either build another “box” (soffet) with channels OR stop the first layer of rock just short of the pipes, insulate and caulk everywhere in this area and have the second layer of rock cover the opening. I’m sure that’s not the recommended process anyone here would advise, but these are my options. Anything you care add to these "method"

Steve, you'll have to elaborate on your "number of reasons" because I'm at a loss to understand the rationale behind your hesitation to do this area correctly.

If you eliminate a big chunk of drywall, you are in essence creating a large hole in your isolation. Do not make the mistake of thinking that eliminating 4% of your first layer of drywall will affect your isolation by the same percentage -- the cost in terms of iso is far greater.

If you don't believe me, ask anyone who didn't use good door seals.