What type of cieling tiles?

[Pennywizz6]

Hello,

My studio is done minus one thing.... a ceiling! Due to the fact is is in the basment ive got a ton of duct work and the electrical box in my room so a sheetrocked ceiling would be way to hard to frame up so next best option, a suspended ceiling.

There is currently no insulation between my studio and the upper floor (its a tad loud up there ) I will need to put up the recommended rockwool type insulation. I have a few questions about rockwool, how much is it compared to standard insulation and can you buy it at places like home depot, menards ect?

I also need to pick up tiles. I have no clue what would work best. First id like tiles that are visually appealing, in a residential setting. I also cant spend more than 10 bucks a tile, around 5 is much more in my range for a 2x2 foot panel.

Do to the size id like to avoid any online ordering (unless it really cheap or free shipping) so ill have to go to homedepot or menards.

Thanks for any help, im sure the people at the store wouldnt have the insight you guys do.

Thanks,

Fill

[sharward]

Let's see some pictures.

I'm concerned that you're well on your way to having very sucky isolation. What are your isolation goals?

[Pennywizz6]

Sorry no pictures at this moment, however ill get some up 2morrow!

Thanks,

Fill

[Pennywizz6]

Sorry for the delay, heres a couple pictures of my ceiling! (if you can call it that haha) the lowest point (where the big vent drops down is 86" (ouch) So i will work around that and only drop it that low where its needed, thank god its pretty out of the way, and with the drum the slant may result in some good diffusion, the highest part is 98" My overal isolation goal isnt silence from any noise outside the room all my condenser will be recorded in my iso room. I just dont want sound to escape! Id like to play drums down there while my mom is home and not have to worry about it being too loud upstairs. Some sound is ok, i dont know exactly what an acceptable DB level would be though.


Thanks!

Fill

[sharward]

Those are some good pictures. Thanks for posting them. It makes things a lot clearer.

Boy, you weren't kidding -- you've got some serious ductwork around which to work.

I've sifted through your past posts, including this one from February where you first discuss your plans. Unfortunately, that thread pretty much died after we welcomed you.

You've participated in some other threads, but you also started this one where you discussed your gear. It was in that post that I learned you're just 16 years old -- pretty impressive setup for someone who's just getting started in the field, let alone just getting started with life in general.

Anyway, I'm more than a little concerned about your ceiling situation. As you have (hopefully ) learned by now, soundproofing requires lots of mass, lots of air, and lots of mass -- in that order. Mass is heavy (obviously).

Soundproofingwise, you need to put lots of mass on that ceiling, and it has to be decoupled from the existing structure. There are several ways to do this -- since it has been discussed many times throughout this forum, I won't reinvent the wheel here. Some hints are: resilient channel, RSIC clips, staggering joists, beefing up between joists.

However, before you run off to just "do it," I would be remiss in my worrywart duties not to tell you that you are embarking on a potentially dangerous situation -- one that, if not done properly, could cause DEATH by a catastrophic collapse of the floor above. No, I'm not kidding.

I also haven't seen anything about ventilation. Ventilation is not a luxury -- it is a requirement. What are your plans for that?

I'm also pretty sure that your ducts as they exist will not allow you to maintain a minimum vertical clearance to meet building code.

Please stop, take a break, and read the "Permits, Codes, Licenses -- and WHY YOU SHOULD CARE!" thread I started.

In fact, you mentioned that Mom granted you permission to finish the basement. Please, have her read that thread as well.

I realize much of it will be a buzz-kill, but I'm trying to keep you alive. The risk of your overloading your upstairs floor joists is severe.

We're here to help, but I'm going to hold off on any more "helping" until I'm convinced you're going to be safe... And the burden of proof is pretty steep.

--Keith

[Pennywizz6]

Thanks a bunch for your insight Keith! But wow, gave me a lot to think about! I first had no clue that the mass part was really that heavy that could cause such a thing to happen such as a floor collapsing, it raises a concern, however i doubt I can afford much more than a layer of insulation and the tiles (not perfect, but will definately lower the DB throughout the house rather than just having a half inch or so of plywood trying to stop drums a few feet below! My house is fairly new (2001ish) so i dont know if its still as vulnerable to older houses or not. I found this product http://www.soundprooffoam.com/ultra-tou ... ation.html which IMO sounds quite ideal for the price and the performance with an overal NRC rating of 1.15 and low frequencys around a 1NRC rating, from what i know that is pretty good! IT also has a DB reduction of 21-48 STC, also a good chunk!

I will most likely put up my ceiling rails, put acoustic sealant between the drywall and rails, put up the insulation posted above, and then put up the tiles. That will give a seal betwen the cieling and the floor, a barrier of cieling tiles, and the 5.5 inches of insulation.

Venting... i dont know where to even begin, really id rather not think about it haha. however you did bring up that it really is needed. Ill have to look into how many vents are needed and where to branch off of the main vent. More work, yippee

I will also have to discuss with my mom about permits and that thread, right now I do not have one (i didnt know it was even needed O.o) , and up to this point have not had one, will there be some sort of penalty because of that?

Thanks again for your help, its very much appreciated, with just living with my mom and older brother theres really isnt easy access to this sort of information!

Fill

[sharward]

Hey Fill,

Thanks a bunch for your insight Keith!

Glad to help.

But wow, gave me a lot to think about! I first had no clue that the mass part was really that heavy that could cause such a thing to happen such as a floor collapsing, it raises a concern . . .

Yup. Gravity's a bitch sometimes.

. . . however i doubt I can afford much more than a layer of insulation and the tiles (not perfect, but will definately lower the DB throughout the house rather than just having a half inch or so of plywood trying to stop drums a few feet below!

Not by much though...

My house is fairly new (2001ish) so i dont know if its still as vulnerable to older houses or not.

You would think that "newer" meant "stronger." This is true in some cases, since building codes have matured and lessons have been learned over time. However, there's also the "they don't build 'em like they used to" angle... ...so, in short, it's best not to make any assumptions based on the age of a house. Remember, homebuilders will put the least amount of money into a building project in order to maximize profits -- they'll do the minimum necessary for the job. If the plans don't call for a finished basement, don't expect the structure to be able to handle it without doing the research necessary to prove that it will.

I found this product http://www.soundprooffoam.com/ultra-tou ... ation.html which IMO sounds quite ideal for the price and the performance with an overal NRC rating of 1.15 and low frequencys around a 1NRC rating, from what i know that is pretty good! IT also has a DB reduction of 21-48 STC, also a good chunk!

One of the things you'll learn about soundproofing is that there is no shortage of companies selling products for the job. Unfortunately, many of them are crap -- a total waste of money. Others are good but too expensive -- more conventional products, if installed carefully and properly, will be more efficient and possibly even more effective.

You need to learn more about STC. In short, you cannot simply add STC ratings together to get a sum total. You'll also find that STC is pretty much meaningless when it comes to isolating acoustic drums -- think of Wile E. Coyote holding up the little umbrella when the boulder is about to crush him!

I will most likely put up my ceiling rails, put acoustic sealant between the drywall and rails, put up the insulation posted above, and then put up the tiles. That will give a seal betwen the cieling and the floor, a barrier of cieling tiles, and the 3.5 inches of insulation.

I dunno about that... If you're planning to use the type of ceiling tiles common in office buildings, you're not going to have much benefit from that. I don't have the numbers, but Steve ("knightfly") does, and they're not pretty.

Venting... i dont know where to even begin, really id rather not think about it haha. however you did bring up that it really is needed. Ill have to look into how many vents are needed and where to branch off of the main vent. More work, yippee

Adding "vents" to your existing house system may not (and probably will not) be sufficient. You're building a room without any windows, right? If so, you'll need a fresh air supply. Here is the point in my project thread that I decided to incorporate the a Fantech HRV (heat recovery ventilator). Learn more about ventilation.

I will also have to discuss with my mom about permits and that thread, right now I do not have one (i didnt know it was even needed O.o) , and up to this point have not had one, will there be some sort of penalty because of that?

Possibly... But if you (actually, your mom!) proactively seek compliance, you'll probably be OK, even if you "sinned" by building without a permit to begin with.

Thanks again for your help, its very much appreciated, with just living with my mom and older brother theres really isnt easy access to this sort of information!

The Internet is full of great gems of value, and I agree, this is definitely one of them!

In closing, see my "Stages of Soundproofing Enlightenment" thread and tell us what phase you think you're in right now.

--Keith

[Pennywizz6]

Thanks a bunch again

I think im around the 14. Holy crap, I think I'm getting it!

Im getting it more and more over time and advice i get and thats great and im glad about that. However "getting it" and "achieving it" can be a big barrier to confront. My mom is paying for most of the constuction (by all means not really a wealthy family) I try and pitch in, but usually she wont let me But ive got the bill to pay for audio equipment. Seeing that money is tight (mom works at Northwest airlines... if ya get the drift) its tough to get stuff to work in my target price. And also being I dont have a job (id rather not get one, im tryign to get the studio done and make money by that) but I do, do websites and computer work for an array of people so currently thats my only source of income. Btw, if you need a cheap price on a professional level website please, contact me

Also right now im really debating on whether something will suffice, or its not enough. I guess I dont have a real idea on how much of a reduction ill get with the different setups. Im sort of baseing it off of my brothers room which is right next to the studio (he complains less, but poor soul ) He isnt as much into audio as I am, but he always has his music cranked (two 8 3/4 speakers i beleive) His room has a single sheetrock, standard insulation in his ceiling and above his music is audible upstairs (one floor up) but it is fairly quite when its pretty ear curdling loud in his room. above him is carpet too, where i have linolium (sp ) so I dont know if thats a big difference or not.

I guess I didnt give good price figures either so i will throw them out

Under 500 for tiles rails ect for the drop down.
Under 350 for insulation

Or a total of 850 for both. If it were me id say that I could stretch those figures if I have to, but because it is most of my moms money I cant really say that

I still have to look into ventalation. I see a way i can add an out from the main duct as shown in the picture but thats about it, and I dont know if one is enough though, ill need to search minnesota codes. You also said that building off my existing vent may not work. I know i cant get an extra outside unit :/

And I talked to her about the permit, she said she would try and look into it.

Thanks!

Fill

[sharward]

Regarding ventilation... You are building windowless rooms. Windows are more than a luxury -- they supply the room with fresh air on demand. No windows, no fresh air on demand -- unless you have a fresh air ventilation system. Your existing system in the house may have a fresh air provision -- it may just recycle and condition air from the rest of the house at a temperature that keeps the rooms comfortable. That will most likely not pass code.

You need "a window that isn't a window." That's what mechanical ventilation will give you.

The mechanical ventilation must be capable of exhanging all of the air in the room(s) a certain number of times per hour. In my town it's 2 ACH, which stands for 2 Air Changes per Minute, or once every 30 minutes. It's up to you to determine what code calls for in your part of the world.

Trust me -- I ran into this obstacle myself. You have the benefit of my having struggled with that -- the Fantech system I'm getting solves that problem.

I realize my own project thread is the longest on the board, and it's hard to follow... But you can learn a lot from steering clear of the mines in the field, and my thread contains a map where some of those mines are so you can avoid getting your feet blown off!

--Keith