Starting to worry - your thoughts guys

[giles117]

That should help a little bit. I recall a company back in 1996 that built a studio in that fashion... Difference was they had 24" of space between rooms.....

[JohnGardner]

Guys,

I do think that some of the problem is that both rooms share the same commom floor (floor joists) and also the same common ceiling (ceiling joists).

I used rubber top and bottom on the live room walls to somewhat isolate them from the shared floor and ceiling but there is still some hard connection in the the live room ceiling via the hat channels that are connected to the shared ceiling joists and in the live room floor via screws that hold the new floor down on the existing floor. There was no way around this unless I wanted to basically work as a hunch back and float a totally new floor and ceiling.

There was also no other way I could see to connect the new control room wall to the existing structure apart from nailing it into place directlly to the floor and ceiling.

My feeling is that when I hit either side of the walls that seperate the control room and live room that some of the movement/vibration I see is air pressure but some is also the unavoidable connection of a shared floor and ceiling. I suppose the question is once the new control room wall is totally built and sealed how much energy created in the live room will transfer though this shared floor and ceiling via joists/rafters etc. Hitting the wall with my fist is at the extreme end of the spetrum I would have thought compared to a gtar amp or drum kit.

The interesting thing is that I have been insulating the live room walls over the last few nights with 50mm semi rigid insulation (705) and it really makes a huge difference to the transfer of any vibrations even when you hit the walls really hard with your fist. I have not done the control room section of the live room yet but I am hoping that it will also make a perceviable difference to the "solidness" of this wall section on the live room side anyway.

I have no choice but to proceed with the control room side of the double wall by adding another one/two layers too increase the mass, sealing all the seams and making sure the window and door seals are nice and tight.

Thanks and any other comments would be appreciated.

JohnG

[giles117]

TRhere are always some compromises when retrofitting a house....

Some thinsg may not be ideal, but still reasonably effective.

[JohnGardner]

Thanks Bryan, you just made my day. It's nice to have some positive comment.

I realize that I have made compromises but hopefully nothing to "life threating"

Keep you posted

JG

[giles117]

Sometimes we can be so perfectionistic (the assumption is if you caome here you want it perfect) but we realize workarounds. I had to do woararounds in my studio stuff I wish I didnt have to do, but cost and structure dictated I had to make compromises.

But we endeavour to alwasy give a best case scenario...

[len-morgan]

John,

Thanks Bryan, you just made my day. It's nice to have some positive comment.

I'm sorry if my comments came off of critical or discouraging. That was certainly not my intent and I think I speak for most people here in that regard.

I had forgotten that you had the foam at the top and bottom of the walls. I latched on to the "how tightly wedged in the wall was" comment and jumped right to "nailed together."

I hope we can be forgiven for (prematurely) jumping on this. If you have been in this forum for any length of time, you see countless people who say something to the effect of "I don't have the money, space, time, talent, whatever to do it right so I did it wrong. Now how to I make it perfect."

Except for those with unlimited budgets, everyone of us makes compromises in our projects. Some times the rationale is reasonable. I my case for example, floating the floor of the rooms was not deemed necessary because isolation is not an issue for me (solid outer building, no neighbors, etc). Would I like to have had a floating floor, yes. But my building didn't need it for isolation, and my ceiling height didn't really make it practical. Could I have removed the roof of the building and put on a pitched roof which would have given my the height? Yes. But budget didn't allow.

Also, it seems that lots of people get wrapped up in the isolation issue and forget the practical realities. For example, I can't see any scenario where I'll be mixing FINISHED tracks in the control room while I'm recording a band playing in the main room. I'll record, then I'll mix. Therefore, I don't need to have so much isolation between the control room and main room that the band looks like they are doing pantomime (sp?) when in reality they are "dialed to 11."

If I had thought about how I was actually going to use the rooms at the design stage, I think I still would have used double walls and two layers of DW all around. The other reality we all have to deal with is that the STC ratings we are all trying for are a lot like the government milage ratings on cars: Your milage WILL vary! The walls that are used to come up with those numbers are built by professionals and tested in labs. We will be lucky if we get close to those numbers so I'm happy to over build a little.

I'm sorry, I started to ramble a little. I didn't mean to hijack your thread.

len

[giles117]

Also, it seems that lots of people get wrapped up in the isolation issue and forget the practical realities. For example, I can't see any scenario where I'll be mixing FINISHED tracks in the control room while I'm recording a band playing in the main room. I'll record, then I'll mix. Therefore, I don't need to have so much isolation between the control room and main room that the band looks like they are doing pantomime (sp?) when in reality they are "dialed to 11."

Till you are cutting drums and the phase cancellation of the drum sound passing through the wall messes with what your monitors are putting out

[len-morgan]

Well, I'm not proposing that we all give up and use wall paper instead of dry wall. In the case you mentioned (drums) while it's not optimal, couldn't you record a little, stop playing and listen to what you've got, make adjustments, then record the whole thing?

Yeah, it's not perfect but again, we don't have unlimited budgets so we need to work with what we have.

len

[sharward]

Great post, Len.

[giles117]

Len, would you pay an engineer to work as you suggested. set up mics, record stop/listen record some more, stop listen adjust mics???

I prefer to adjust mics prior to hitting record. I rpefer to get good quality tones and levels before we start recording takes.....

Just the way I was trained......Not etched in Stone......

We may not have unlimited budgets but we dont have unlimited time either....

[JohnGardner]

I think half the problem is we do all have to make some compromises when working inside an existing structure and it's these compromises that freak us all out because, in my case, I am freaked out that I will spend all this considerable time and money making something I am disapointed with.

When you buy a car you know it will start but when making a sound proof room, on a budget, within an existing structure, having to make the odd shortcut from what is considered best practice and doing it all by yourself at nights and on weekends there are many times when you wake up at night thinking "am I nuts" or "is this actually going to do what I want it too"

I appreciate all the help and comments, it's got me where I am today, which is give or take a couple of windows and doors a nearly finished studio of my own that hopefully will be soundproof enough not to upset the neighbours when my frustrations get taken out on a set of Pearl drums!!

[giles117]

Based on your construction you should definitely meet the criterium of "dont bug the neighbors"

My 1st floor studio has me in a position that I never hear what is happening outdoors and you can stand next to the room on the outside and not hear a peep.

[knightfly]

A lot of good points brought up here - my take on this

Isolation to the outside is #1 concern in most cases - without that (unless you're lucky enough to live in a vacuum) you can't use your studio AT ALL. Either neighbors or family will make your life a living hell - not to mention ruining that perfect acoustic guitar track with a barking dog, kids slamming doors and fighting, etc.

If you're using the space even semi-professionally, I'd have to agree with Bryan about room-to-room isolation also; the "cut and try" method works, but is slower than sin. On a tight budget and a true "home" studio deal, it can work but if you can, good iso is better for reasons already stated. Same reasons for only considering a single-room setup - it can be done, but it's slow and awkward.

A smaller, but actually soundproof, room beats a large one that can only be used 1 hour a day between 2 and 3 pm.

Having a separate place to store acoustic guitars when mixing is a necessity. All the pix of pro studios you see in Mix, etc, that show guitars on stands in mix or tracking rooms are just BS eye candy.

In almost ANY basement studio, a dehumidifier is NOT an option; it's a necessity. The only non-detrimental thing that I can think of that needs high humidity are orchids. Guitars, pianos, and any other acoustic stringed instruments are happiest at between 40 and 43% humidity - mold is happiest at higher levels, which is another reason NOT to allow this.

Constant air circulation (small fan or two) is another necessity in damp-prone locations - if the air isn't moving, it can't dry out the space. One way to set this up is to have all fans and dehumidifier on the same power strip; only shut it off when actually recording, or mixdowns if the fans are too loud to hear reverb tails, etc.

All the moisture control is even MORE necessary when soundproofing is involved; wood framing/wood panels can handle 10 times the moisture level that gypsum/steel construction can before mold, etc - all masonry construction can handle 10 times as much as wood. This makes drying/ventilation REALLY important for typical home studios, since the least expensive construction that works is gypsum either on wood or steel.

'nuff blathering, gotta go... Steve

[len-morgan]

I prefer to adjust mics prior to hitting record. I rpefer to get good quality tones and levels before we start recording takes.....

Just the way I was trained......Not etched in Stone......

We may not have unlimited budgets but we dont have unlimited time either....

Ahhh, there is where we are different! The one thing I DO have is unlimited time. Well sort of. I was merely suggesting that rather than throw in the towel and fill a less than perfect studio with concrete (and yes, the thought has crossed my mind once or twice) there are work arounds possible.

You also have one other thing over me (and probably a least a few others here): Actual recording experience. I bought a Digitech Harmonizer on a whim just about 2 years ago now because I thought it would be cool (now I have myself AND 4 off key singers!!). About 10K work of software and hardware later, I've got the bug and want to improve my recording skills which is why I'm building a studio. I'm sure I'll run into phasing problems once I'm in something a little better than a spare bedroom with no treatment.

Fortunately, when I get a little discouraged (or a lot frustrated), I have you guys to come back to to lift my spirits back up. That may be the most underrated benefit of this forum!

len

[cyeazel]

I agree Len, especially since I have no experience whatsoever. I've been in studios and have been recorded many times, but I've never been "the engineer" nor have I ever built a studio before. I just realized that I have the opportunity to convert these rooms of mine so I jumped all over the chance. There are many, many obstacles that come up so when I'm discouraged or doubtfull, it is great getting positive feedback and info on this forum.
Just thought I'd chime in there.