Newbie question

[jkokura]

I've been reading around here a long time...just didn't join until today.

So I grew so bold as to ask John a question, and he said he'd rather me ask the guys in his forum the question. so here I am.

My question is twofold. I've looked at the DIY wall units John's site has and I'd love to build them. However, I wonder if the cost of the MDF and fibreglass and fabric is going to make it worth it compared to buying a acoustic foam package from someone like primacoustic. http://www.primacoustic.com/studiokit.htm I either want to get a primacoustic set for my 9x12 room, or I want to build 4 corner, two rear and four wall units as John's described on his page here: http://johnlsayers.com/HR/index1.htm So which is going to be worth it cost wise? Is the DIY units cheaper and better? Better and worth the cost? Neither cheaper or better?

Secondly, if I do end up building the wall units in my room, I need to make them removable. I rent right now, and wouldn't want to leave them behind if I move. However, what I'm understanding from John's page on building them I'd need to building tight to the ceiling. Now I know I might be way off, but if I build the units tight to the ceiling it won't come out if I need it to. Is there a way around this? Am I mistaken in my understanding?

Thanks for any help guys,

Jacob

[kendale]

Aloha Jacob,

Welcome to the forum!

While I am no expert here and may be going out on a limb here, might I share a few thoughts and observations of my current studio build/acoustic treatment project?

Like you, I am in a "temporary location" and wanted to have some sort of acoustic treatment that I could take with me in the event of relocation.

I had also looked at the Primacoustic line as well as products from ASC Tube Traps, RPG and Auralex.

However, after doing some considerable research (BEFORE laying down the hard earned cash) on "real recording studios" and studying as many images of control/live rooms as I could find via web searches, I began to notice that very, very few pro studios used "foam" products. That observation made me reconsider my approach.

After much reading and study on this and the SAE site, I decided to try the DIY approach described.

You might want to check out my studio design/build threads here:

http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... highlight=

and here:

http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4091

to see what's been happening.

So which is going to be worth it cost wise? Is the DIY units cheaper and better? Better and worth the cost? Neither cheaper or better?

From what I've read, most folks here feel you can DIY better/cheaper than the foam approach. I'm not sure how much materials cost in your area, so it's hard to say whether or not you would find it cheaper.

Granted, while my project has not been exactly "cheap", to my ears and the clients that have heard it, the results are definitely worth the investment.

Another point to ponder is do you really want the "foam tone."

Having worked in a couple of semi pro/home studios that had the foam treatment I would have to say that the results from the DIY treatments described here are far, far better sonically.

Secondly, if I do end up building the wall units in my room, I need to make them removable. I rent right now, and wouldn't want to leave them behind if I move. However, what I'm understanding from John's page on building them I'd need to building tight to the ceiling.

Another thought to ponder: there are some things that should not be compromised, especially when safety is concerned. It would behoove us all to heed those more studied in structural design when they point out those specific areas.

That being said, I have also read somewhere around here that, while the designs and principles described here have been proven to work both mathematically and sonically, sometimes due to budget (or lack thereof), planning oversights or just plain not knowing any better, many have had to make compromises to the ideals prescribed. Granted, there are some things that work better than others, and the closer you can adhere to the principles the better your chances of success.

If you were take a look at the approach I used, they stopped about a foot short of the ceiling. Yet, the design worked and the improvement in sound is amazing.

I am currently in process of building the side absorbers, with the rear absorbers and cloud after that.

Again, there have been a few compromises made (due in part to other furniture in the room - large, immovable wall unit , keeping these treatments movable , and in the interest of keeping marital bliss.

Yet, even with the compromises in design/principles, the improvements to the sound of the room are noticeable and definitely worthwhile.

I would encourage you to keep reading, post a few drawings of any design ideas you might have, and see what kind of response/advice shows up. Chances are something will turn up that will suit your needs.

Aloha

[jkokura]

You might want to check out my studio design/build threads here:

If you were take a look at the approach I used, they stopped about a foot short of the ceiling. Yet, the design worked and the improvement in sound is amazing.

Wow! It's like what I want to do is on display for me as an example! Well close at least...You have much more gear than I have, and quite frankly I don't want to go the route of a console and tones of rack gear yet... I run a computer based system with a pair delta 1010's...some pres and some general outboard gear...my setup's very basic to start with, and I'm sure that over the years I'll expand...

But anyway...What I'd like to do first is build soffets and a front absorber. I like the way you built the frame and then put the stands inside the frame which was then covered up. Is there a reason why the top half of your soffets are solid and the bottom is covered with cloth? Also, is the front absorber the opposite? All I see is the top half that's cloth... and on that subject, why is the Maine cloth you installed special? is there differences between cloth's used in absorbers?

I also REALLY like the way your side absorbers are modular. I think it's likely I could go right to the ceiling if I built them in two halves! 4'x4'x8" boxes, basically, with slotted and angled covers...

Maybe a stupid quesiton, but how is the rockwool hung inside these cabinets? Are they all just lined like the pictures show and then a front put on? Is the rest of the space filled eventually? Are the rear of the front panels on the soffets covered with insulation like the sides and rear of the interior?

On the other hand...you said that Foam doesn't get used in pro studios...but there's people selling them so they must have SOME use. Is there any benefit to the various foam products out there? Is there a balance of DIY units and Foam units? Can the two be married to make my effots more cost efficient?

I have too many questions I'm sure.

Again, there have been a few compromises made (due in part to other furniture in the room - large, immovable wall unit , keeping these treatments movable , and in the interest of keeping marital bliss.

That bliss must be hard to maintain...I'm getting married soon and I'm scared about the 'compromises' to come - budget, time, and space!

I'm so grateful to you, and reading your post I see you're simply passing on the grace given to you, and for that I'm grateful indeed! When I'm able I'll post some diagrams of my space and hopefully before long i'll be able to post pics as well!

Jacob

[kendale]

Aloha Jacob,

You have much more gear than I have, and quite frankly I don't want to go the route of a console and tones of rack gear yet... I run a computer based system with a pair delta 1010's...some pres and some general outboard gear

Funny you should mention that...as I am hoping to make the move to a DAW system...someday

Is there a reason why the top half of your soffets are solid and the bottom is covered with cloth?

There are several reasons for the design...more than I understand or can explain. There are however, several links and diagrams that explain this much better than I ever could. for starters:

http://www.genelec.com/support/faq/faq19.php

http://www.genelec.com/support/faq/faq20.php

http://www.genelec.com/support/soffit.php

http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic ... ffit+plans

http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=718

Also, is the front absorber the opposite? All I see is the top half that's cloth... and on that subject, why is the Maine cloth you installed special? is there differences between cloth's used in absorbers?

http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html

http://www.johnlsayers.com/HR/index1.htm

One of the reasons I went with the Guilford of Maine cloth is because of its transparent acoustic properties.

Maybe a stupid quesiton, but how is the rockwool hung inside these cabinets? Are they all just lined like the pictures show and then a front put on? Is the rest of the space filled eventually? Are the rear of the front panels on the soffets covered with insulation like the sides and rear of the interior?

I used some scrap pieces of miscuts I had. I've seen others create a wire frame/cradle to hold the rockwool in place. The coolest install product I've seen were called "impaling clips," but there weren't readily available out here at the time of install.

On the other hand...you said that Foam doesn't get used in pro studios...but there's people selling them so they must have SOME use. Is there any benefit to the various foam products out there? Is there a balance of DIY units and Foam units? Can the two be married to make my effots more cost efficient?

Actually, I wrote: "I began to notice that very, very few pro studios used "foam" products" rather than "doesn't get used" at all.

While I am sure that the "acoustical foam" market is alive and well, with plenty of takers, the observation of the lack thereof in pro studios made me stop and wonder why. The choice is ultimately yours.

I have too many questions I'm sure.

You and me both! One of the many things about this forum that I've appreciated is the opportunity it provides for us to read, study and ask questions.

That bliss must be hard to maintain...I'm getting married soon and I'm scared about the 'compromises' to come - budget, time, and space!

Congratulations on your upcoming wedding! In as much as I've enjoyed working on the studio thing, I've found that its much more important to cultivate my marriage, regardless of the compromises - real or imagined. Not that its been easy or always enjoyable, but there are more important things in life than me putzing around in the studio, no matter how enjoyable.

I'm so grateful to you, and reading your post I see you're simply passing on the grace given to you, and for that I'm grateful indeed!

Freely I've been given, freely I give in return.

When I'm able I'll post some diagrams of my space and hopefully before long i'll be able to post pics as well!

Looking forward to celebrating your space, pics and wedding.

Aloha

[kendale]

Aloha,

Back again.

I found a couple of the soffit diagrams gleaned from the forum and I mentioned in my last post.

Enjoy!

Aloha

[jkokura]

been a while, but I finally have another question...it's about soffits. John's page with an example CR using the DIY Wall units. The diagram that John has there doesn't incorporate soffits for the moniters.

As much as build the corner absorber with soffits, the amount of wood needed and building needed is MUCH higher. I'd like to do this, but is it really needed? most of my recording is done offsite anyway, I mostly want to mix in this room...some acoustic and vocal recording done in the control room, but mostly mixing.

Attached is a word diagram of the room's floorplan, the first and second phase of what I'm hoping to do, and the potential finished product.

Tell me what you think, if it's a wise/dumb idea, if it's going to be a really good choice, or if you REALLY think soffiting is the way to go instead...

Jacob

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[kendale]

Aloha Jacob,

I think you're off to a good place to start. Be sure to allow for revisions as you get into the thick of things. Like you, I am approaching my project in phases as time and resources allow.

Are you refering to the plans at the SAE site? Four of the six examples shown there have soffits/bass traps. The first pic is what I was listening to before going with soffits. Very tiring to listen to, let alone trying to mix.

The second pic is kind of what I'm shooting for, albeit in a modular sort of way. I opted for a front wall absorber instead of the window as suggested by Steve (Kinghtfly).

I can only speak for myself here, but having worked in a couple of studios that had console/stand mounted monitors, and now hearing the difference it makes in my current situation, the improvement in bottom end, clearer imaging, drums sounding clearer and more defined in mixes, able to hear clearer at lower volumes than before, room sounds quieter without music playing, louder & tighter with less effort when music played and less fatigue/more enjoyment in listening and especially mixing is quite amazing, and I dont think I'll ever go back if I have the choice.

I have read several other posts here in the forum of the same opinion as well (which also helped convince me to taste and see.) You'll have to decide on that one at some point.

Granted, the added expense and work involved may be somewhat daunting, but in my case at least, the end results more than justify the investment. I would encourage you to keep reading, asking and saving up for your project as best you can.

Looking forward to your progress and pics as you get started.

Aloha

[kendale]

Aloha Jacob,

Here's an unfortunate ear witness account of "foam tone."

http://johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=4854

Aloha