Please guide, react, criticize, think aloud, or provide link

[Tao_teh_ching]

Dear all
Please guide, react, criticize, think aloud, or provide links…. your reactions are all we need before we go ahead with our studio.

Overview: Setting-up a high-quality basement studio in India for commercial music & voice-over market and ambitious in-house projects.

Goals:
 Great Acoustics
 5.1 surround sound compliance
 No direct noise
 Minimum structural noise

Budget: Though prohibitively expensive for us due to currency-conversions, it may only be a ‘project-studio’ in western terms. Specifically,
 Property: We have bought the basement to avoid future problems, so half the budget is gone. Hence, we need to economize on the rest.
 Fabrication: …of non-parallel Control Room walls, Recording Room, electricals, air-conditioning, acoustic treatment (minus furnishing & décor)… about $ 20,000.

Where we are: Research over, drawings made, architect waiting to start construction any day…
The sooner the better! Just waiting for your inputs, critical evaluation, opinion, suggestions and links to fabrication pictures, guidelines etc.

What we hope to achieve from this post:
1. Suggestions on our acoustic and sound-proofing plans
2. Opinions on floating floor & its option.
3. Links: As many as possible, to anything you think maybe good for us...

Dimensions: Our control room is based on Ethan Winer’s article, “Maximum studio, Minimum stress.” We have left extra 8 inches for absorption. After soundproofing-
 Control Room: Height x Width x Length = 8ft x 11ft front / 15ft back x 23ft.
 Recording Room: Height x Width x Length = ?ft x ?ft x ?ft.. (Based on Louden B Acoustic Room Ratio - 1.0 x 1.3 x 1.9).

Drawings: Please see the following
1. Control Room & Recording Room layout. URL- http://img529.imageshack.us/img529/4213/onlypcr0mv.jpg
2. Whole basement layout. URL- http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/7895 ... pcr3dl.jpg
3. Ethan Winer’s Control room layout (we are going to follow it in our Control room). URL- http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/7333 ... big2ep.gif
4. Floating floor- 100% sound proof (From ‘Modern Recording Techniques’ by David Huber and Robert Runstein. URL- http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/9662 ... psd4au.jpg
5. Floating floor- 2nd Option (From the same source). URL- http://img180.imageshack.us/img180/7391 ... psd9uh.jpg

We are very short on time… must start fabrication at the earliest. So please shoot quick responses…

QUESTIONS – Acoustics & layout

1. Suggestions: Check our layout designs… tear them apart or give any random ideas.
2. Floating floor? We want a floating floor (Drawing No. 4) but it is expensive. So considering the 2nd option (Drawing No. 5). How big is the difference between the two plans? If the first option resists 100% structural noise, how effective would be the 2nd option? .... (All walls of Recording Room will stop two feet from the ceiling).
3. Walls? Recording Room - we plan a second wall (named 2a) next to existing outer wall. Do you think we need this wall or should use the wall behind it? How much would it reduce the structural noise from basement next door from that side?
4. Links please: To anything useful… Fabrication pictures, sound-proofing, bass traps, absorbers, diffusers, drawings, articles, studio-build diaries, etc.

Your inputs are critical to us…. If we get your approval & suggestions… we will go ahead with fabrication. So please say / suggest / link anything that you may deem important.
Many Thanks[/img]

[knightfly]

Have you done any sort of a site survey to see what your surrounding noise levels are? What about neighbors, are there any close by that will object to hearing your sound coming at them? What will be your hours of operation?

The second, cheaper floated floor won't do much; you need mass-air-mass to block sound, the lower the frequency the more of each you need. Assuming your basement floor is thick enough and strong enough, the more expensive way will do a lot; but there is no such thing as 100% reduction. No matter how much isolation, there is always SOMETHING that can get through it. The cheaper method would probably be about 1/3 as effective as the concrete floated slab, although this would be impossible to calculate without knowing actual dimensions, etc -

As to the wall (2b), you've not given enough information for an answer - I'd need to know the exact construction of the existing wall (concrete? How thick?) , the distance from that wall to the new wall, and the EXACT construction intended for the new wall.

Overall, it sounds to me like you need to slow down a bit or you will very likely spend your money and be very sad. Please read at least the first three links in the REFERENCE section again for a bit more background, answer ALL my questions above as best you can, explain the rush, and we'll try to help... Steve

[Tao_teh_ching]

Hey Steve,

Thanks for your prompt reply.

1. We had earlier gone through the links that you suggested, only now we will go through them much more carefully and will gi into the details.

2. After going through those links we will Post again, with more specific questions and queries. We will also provide you with info that you had asked for.

We want your help at every step of our construction, and are more than willing to do our homework. So, please look out for posts by me and keep a eye on this post as i will provide you with more updated questions. Thank you.

Regards

[Tao_teh_ching]

Dear Steve & Others
Merry Christmas
We read all sticky links, and were enlightened by the discussions & diagrams.

Two reasons for the rush – 1. We have to share the proposed space with a video team, which is doing a lot of work and needs the office ASAP. They have been waiting for us and have now given us an ultimatum to start building. If they don’t move into the new space fast, their work will suffer and they will make losses. 2. We reached this goldmine of a forum very late. Wish we had reached six months earlier.

WALL SPECS ON EARLIER DRAWINGS - LAYOUT
Existing walls- All boundary walls (9”) guest house walls and pantry walls
Walls to be made- Nos. 1 (9” brick wall), 4, 7, 5, 10 (4” brick walls)
Room within a room walls- (See new drawing) 1, 2a, 3, 4

NEW DRAWING- RECORDING ROOM
Based on the drawings / information given & recommended by Steve - we have just tried to customize it a bit and combine 3-in-1 – one drawing for floor, walls & roof.

We hope that with further comments from Steve & corrections by us it will become a good reference for others. We would also post build pictures based on this. So together it could be a good DIY resource.


QUESTIONS – 1st set
The questions must be very basic, based on our limited understanding.
Q1. Is this drawing a good plan for building a room within a room in the Recording Room? Does this exploit the fundamental of mass-air-mass adequately? What could be the improvements?
Q2. Air gap behind the glass wool – Wall: Gap between the outer brick wall and glass-wool should be equal to the thickness of glass-wool or the more the better? What about this gap in the floor and the roof?
Q3. Does the rock-sheet finish in the inside (covered by cloth) reflect sound? Now will the recording room be sound dead or a have a live feel?
Q4. Direct vs. Structural noise - Should we take the outer brick walls to basement ceiling (thus blocking out direct noise from other parts of the studio) or stop them six inches above the inner roof and make another ply-board roof with additional sound proofing (will that reduce structural noise?)
Q5. in the control room apart from absorbers, diffusers and bass traps we want extra absorption, would a similar plan to the wall absorption given in the drawing work?

Complete plan for room within a room
[/img][img]

Please guide...
Thanks in advance

[knightfly]

'way more complex (and wrong) and expensive than needed - the floor, as you've drawn it, is a 3-leaf structure. Also, as drawn the neoprene pads would crash through the subfloor; they need to be in line with support - although this isn't important because you have too many layers anyway. All you need is the final floor mass, joists under, neoprene pads under those, and the concrete base. If you move one or two of those extra layers so the layers are all together, and use thicker joists, you can get the m-a-m resonance pretty low (this is a good thing) - you'll also want a complete insulation fill under the floor, with just a slight amount of compression, or you'll end up with your floor being a large drum head.

Walls, ceiling - forget using RC. You already have separate frames, all RC will do is make it harder to build and cost more.

Check out the Building Sciences links in the REFERENCE section - your questions on insulation, air, etc, will need more input on stuff like climate and dampness levels. Also, when you build brick walls in your area, are there "weep" holes left for the brick to drain?

By "rock sheet", I'm assuming you mean sheet rock - also known in various parts of the world as gyp rock, gypsum wallboard, drywall, plasterboard, etc - by itself, it is pretty bright sounding. Adding just cloth would only take off a small amount of treble. Generally you'll need more than that to get the room sounding good.

Q4 - you're showing brick up to a solid concrete outer ceiling; can't get much better than that.

Q5 - which drawing are you referring to?

Steve

[Tao_teh_ching]

Dear Steve
I appreciate your response more so because you have taken time out on Christmas Eve. Many thanks.
I am checking up the reference on Building sciences.
Meanwhile…

1. Is the floor alright now? Any more changes? What about the floor – wall meeting?
2. As you can see, I have removed the RC from the walls and the roof. Now I need to know that, will the stud frame take the weight of the drywall?
3. Yes, by rock sheet I mean sheet rock, or gypsum board. So what should I do once I have placed it, I was scared that it might be too bright. Here in India people don’t put drywall at all, they just paste the glass-wool on the brick wall and put two layers of cloth on that. I guess that is wrong, so what is the right method? Should I add air + another layer of insulation + cloth on it?
4. Control room absorption? The CR drawing is from Ethan Winer’s article. (drawing 3 in my first post) We want to add general absorption on the walls. How? Wall, air, glass-wool, cloth?
5. My architect has given me the option if I want the brick walls to dry up by themselves or make the “weep holes”. So you tell me if I should make them or not.

Thanks again

[img][img]http://img376.imageshack.us/img376/7753/01recordingfloorwallcei7pc.th.jpg[/img][/img]

[sharward]

Since cost/budget is definitely a factor here, I wonder if we're running with the assumption that a floating floor system is really necessary. It might be. But, so far I don't think I've seen the case made for it.

Nobody lives or works below the studio. It's a basement.

In my "Mason Industries' FSN Floating Floor Concrete Slab Test Data" thread, I raised two questions/points:

• All of the TL data that I have seen about floating floors has been from "the noisy space above" to "the quiet space below," meaning there's living or office space below the floating floor. In basement situations, even moreso than slab-on-grade situations I would think, there's no need to protect occupants below the space from noise intrusion, since there are no occupants there, except maybe earthworms and subterranean termites, and I doubt they much care about the noise.
• I begged the question, "Where are all the people who did not float a floor and, in retrospect, wish they had done so? That question received zero responses.

Again, I'm not saying floating a floor isn't necessary... But I think it's proper (and, in this case, with cost being such a factor, necessary) to prove that it is necessary -- rather than proceeding with the assumption that it already is necessary and having to then prove that it isn't.

I appreciate that floating an entire room (which is really what we're talking about) has its theoretical benefits in terms of structure-borne flanking... But those benefits come at a substantial cost and risk -- the "risk" being doing it wrong and ending up with either an expensive re-do or doing it wrong, not realizing it, and building up anyway and then having quite possibly a worse situation than if they had simply decoupled walls and ceilings. Actually, in basement situations, maybe just the ceiling, since the other side of the walls is often more said earthworms and termites.

I truly wonder how many floating floor success stories are influenced by a sort of placebo affect. Who in his right mind would build a basement studio with an expensive and time-consuming floating floor system, have it not actually perform its job as it is supposed to, and then realize and admit to himself and others that it was a failure?

Just my two cents, from the guy who debated whether or not to float a floor on his own project for several painful months and ultimately decided not to float -- although is suffering an entirely different kind of pain right now!

--Keith
The "not necessarily anti-floating floor guy"

[Tao_teh_ching]

Dear Sharward (and other friends)
Merry X-mas,

Your witty post came as a refreshing new perspective and the Shakespearian twist to the discussion. So guess I should call this link to float or not to float? What say the others?

(We are taking care of those who live below the basement…doing proper termite proofing)

Of course we had looked at your drawing very carefully, and hence we are very eager to know about your point of view.

Hope we will have continued guidance from you, Steve and the others…

Q1. We would love not to float but if we were too fall for the placebo effect and float the floor then is the drawing given above ok? Any changes?
Q2. Without floating single walls or double walls on all 4 sides of the recording floor?
Q3. Without floating what would be a good absorption plan. Layer of what? On what? On what?
Q4. How much of the roof noise would travel in without a float (but with a false ceiling and proper absorption), (our main voice talent keeps asking this as much of the noise that does not get recorded yet can be heard by the ear sometimes disturbs his concentration during a good take)
Q5. How much of noise from adjacent house travel in (it has a basement too.) towards wall number 2b in my original layout drawing in my first drawing.

I found the link very intersting... It does talk about the fact that the main aim for a floating floor is to isolate a noisy upper floor from a quite bottom floor. But as we don't have a bottom floor i get your point. But tell me, is that research only to do with concrete slabs. I shall spend my X-mass reading it and going through it in detail.

Regards

[sharward]

Greetings again, Tao,

I'm afraid that on the subject of floating floors, I'm more of a question asker than a question answerer. I don't want you to think I'm ignoring your questions -- I'm just not the most qualified person to answer them, and I don't want to steer you into a brick wall.

My main point is and was (and clearly you got it): Is it really necessary in your case?

Here are some great threads that cover the "to float or not to float" Shakespearianesque conundrum:

• Float floor on expanded polyester?
  This one has contributions from Rod Gervais, a construction engineer who unfortunately is so busy on multi-million dollar construction projects that his availability here has been quite limited lately, and Paul Woodlock whose amazing project in Peterborough, UK is a sight to behold and not for the faint at heart or the short on time!
  
  Community Studio Build - Help Needed
  This one's about the idea of floating a floor on an upstairs space... But some good points are made about floating a lighter weight floor and the fact that the results could be worse than not floating anything.
  
  Knightfly! Floating floor questions
  One of the most informative all-in-one floating floor threads on the site, with lots of insight from Sir Paul.

There are, I am sure, many more terrific threads here and on StudioTips regarding floating floors. (I see you posted there as well, so it looks like you're getting it from all directions. )

I realize you are in a hurry to get moving... But please don't rush this most critical aspect of your plan. Rushing a floating floor decision and/or design is a virtual guarantee of its failure.

--Keith

[knightfly]

I still haven't seen any comment about the type and level of noise you need to isolate - and which direction matters most to you. (not to suggest that isolation is any different one direction or another, just need an idea of your requirements) - this is why I asked if you'd done any sort of site survey; this is where you rent equipment that can measure and chart the noise levels around the clock for at least a week, so you actually know what you're isolating things FROM.

If you've not done this, the least we'd need is a subjective idea of the noise - is it trains, airplanes, busses, general traffic, barking dogs, rain on the roof, wind noise, noise from your heating/ventilation system, etc - and how close, what type people are the neighbors - do they make noise, or are they intolerant of other people's noise, etc - what type music do you make and how loud are the instruments while recording?

All these are points that need to be covered before a decision can be made about whether to float the room or not... Steve

[Tao_teh_ching]

Dear Steve,

Hi, sorry for the delay...

1. We have'nt done any site survey with measurment instruments and stuff. But if its really required then we shall do it. In that case, please send me a good link or a thread from where i can learn the technique to measure sound with measurement equippment.

2. As for the sources of noise- We have a domestic house above our heads, which is the roof. So from there we are scared that there might be domestic noises, i.e. footsteps, chairs shifting, glass breaking, utensils falling, fridge viberations, mixers and grinders, etc. Towards wall 2a, there is an office which basically has a computer, and a two members staff, so i assume there will be the noice sources as above. We are scared about structural noise, coming from these two sources. If they ever plan to have renovation done then we don't want to be in a soup. There is no heavy traffic around the basement, just a drive way ontop of the guest room. So there are no perpectual noise problems, but yes, you do here the glass crash on the roof when someone with butter fingers drinks water! We don't want that. You do here a hammer when someone hammers the other side of wall 2a! we don't want that. And yes, construction is always going on around the nieghbourhood, we dont want that noise!

3. There are no noises from trains, airplanes, busses, general traffic, barking dogs, rain on the roof, wind noise, noise from your heating/ventilation system, etc. Just your avergae structural sounds caused from glass breaking, furniture shifting and construction.

4. Our niebhours don't like noise or music. We plan to record some heavy duty percussions,imagine drums and imagine rural Indian drums made for the purpose of inter village communication through beats. Thats how loud it will be! And we plan to have some heavy duty Vocals. This will involve artists who can project thier voices and don't really need microphones during a closed concert. And our niebhours don't like that kind of music, they don't want to hear it, and we don't want them to hear it too.

So basically we don't want them to here us, and we don't want to here them.

[knightfly]

Can you find out what your local prices are for the flooring material you have in your drawing of the floated floor, and also how much it costs per cubic yard (or meter) of concrete, as well as whether or not there is a way to reach your space (at least the recording room) to pour concrete? I'm asking this because in my area, it's cheaper to pour a concrete floor over ONE layer of plywood than it is to try and match that much mass with wood products... Steve

Oh, and from your comments on noise you don't need a site evaluation; you DO need a fully floated room so let's concentrate on that direction.

Is the 8 foot ceiling height from concrete floor to concrete ceiling? Steve

[Tao_teh_ching]

Dear Steve,

Thanks for the advice and the concern. I will post the local cost of concrete and the other materials within 12 hours of this post.

As for the height, yes we have a maximum height of 10ft between the concrete floor and the concrete ceiling. But we have usable space of 9ft as there is a 1ft beam on ceiling running parellel to wall 2a and 2b. The beam is located on both sides of the pillar (the black block).

I will also post the reachibility of the pouring concrete space within 12 hours.

[Tao_teh_ching]

Dear Steve,

1. Concrete floor costs: $1 per cubic feet

2. Particle board costs- $1.1 per sqaure foot

3. Wafer Board- $3.3 per sqaure foot

4. Roll roofing- $0.5 sqaure foot

Any other rates?

P.s. Don't worry about the convienieince regarding laying the concrete. If it has to be done, it has to be done.

[sharward]

Yes, but if the concrete must be pumped into the final location, then there's an additional cost for that... So you'll want to be prepared.