Plans to build recording room(s) in garage...

[photoresistor]

Hey guys!

I am just getting ready to construct a room(s) in my garage that will be used to record local bands and musicians. They will be tracking rooms. I've just finished clearing space and figuring out largest possible dimensions for the rooms. So I guess I'm in the planning stage. We've bought some 2x4s but no construction has actually started yet.

The biggest detail is that the rooms will be built as somewhat temporary structures (3-4 year lifespan) as so far as my dad does not want to drill into the concrete floor of the garage (im thinking accoustic caulk will definately be liberally used). the plan is that the rooms will be connected to studs on an existing outter wall as well as the ceiling and that this should provide the necessary stabillity.

I live in a small neighborhood so I would like to make the rooms as soundproof as possible while staying in a reasonable budget (im sure you all have never heard that one before). My dad is actually helping me out with construction costs so I don't have an exact figure but I'm thinking around $1000 for materials (2x4s, sheetrock, doors, etc.)

As I will be recording full rock bands, they're going to be pretty loud.... i am hoping that by putting up multiple (2-3?) layers of thick 5/8" sheetrock and using green glue and accoustic caulking i can achieve at least acceptable sound isolation as to not piss off the neighbors (i dont intend to have loud jam sessions at 2 am... i just want to be able to not annoy the neighborhood and also be able to effectively monitor loud instruments in the control room. if however, isolation could be acheived so late night jamming would be possible for not too much more money, i might consider it )

Anyways, posted below is a diagram showing the basic space I have to work with. The garage is two cars but i have to leave space for washing machine/dryer/water heater/storage space/shelves/etc. The "bottom" wall needs to be how it is drawn (there is an attic opening in the ceiling near there) but the other walls can be angled or moved slightly as would be best.

The idea is that we will take down one side of the garage door and build a wall in its place... of course a door will have to be there too and this will have to be the most massive door in the 'studio' (the other ones arent as important as they dont lead outside).

So I guess I'm looking for design suggestions/plans and had a few questions on my design as well:

- im currently actually torn as to whether i should have two rooms or just one big one. the idea to have two rooms was so that guitar amps could be placed in the second room to increase isolation among instruments when full bands were being recorded at once.

on the other hand, a larger room might be nice... more space.... less money to spend on doors and materials.... if i went with one room, the dimensions are the same on the drawing, itd just be one big room.

do you think some hefty gobos would help very much to create some isolation between guitar amps and drum mics? i was thinking at one time to build an isolation box fitted with a 1x12 cabinet...i must admit i plan to mostly track instruments separately though. Does anyone have any insight or ideas on what might be the best course of action?

- if i went with two rooms, would it be worth it to have the two rooms not directly connected as shown in picture when theyre still connected to the same outside wall and ceiling?

- would it be wise to put insulation in the walls..? im thinking it might at least help with maintaining a moderate temperature inside.

Thankyou guys in advance for any suggestions or plans or corrections... any insight is most appreciated Let me know if i forgot to mention anything about the rooms or anything that you need to kinow.. This is kind of a big step for me. I've had the necessary equipment to make good recordings for awhile but no space. thanks again.

(here is my recording setup just if anyone is interested:

panasonic ramsa da-7 digital mixer
motu 2408mkII interface
amd athlon x2 3800 daw
sonar 5 producer
lucid ssg192 master clock
dynaudio bm5a monitors

[sharward]

The biggest detail is that the rooms will be built as somewhat temporary structures (3-4 year lifespan) as so far as my dad does not want to drill into the concrete floor of the garage . . .

You can't legally build walls without firmly attaching them to the floor -- thank goodness!

You and your dad need to take a few minutes to read all of my "Permits, Codes, Licenses -- and WHY YOU SHOULD CARE!" thread.

There will be a quiz.

[Dan Fitzpatrick]

photoresistor,

hate to tell you, but there is no way to do this with any reasonable success for $1000. i am doing something similar to you, only one room, and it will be at minimum $3000, and that's being wildly optimistic.

however that's not to say $1000 well spent won't help in your goal of pissing off the neighbors a little less.

as you say this is a big step for you, so i recommend reading as much as you can on this site to learn about what you are planning to do. it's pretty clear from your post that you don't know too much about this yet, so get to work man

just for starters if you had read up on this at all you would know that insulation is a must.

anyway, hope that doesn't put you off too much, glad to help in any way i can, as our projects have much in common.

by the way, i'm pretty sure you'll have to attach your walls to the floor as Sharward said ... whether or not you get a permit!

[sharward]

Interesting that $1,000 is his budget. Coincidentally, that's my city's fine for repeat noise ordinance offenders as of October of last year...

[Sandersd]

You should be able to build a free-standing temporary room for $1000 easy. Start by estimating materials for approx. 12'x12' room:

drywall - 25 shts per layer @ $5 sht (3 layer min) = $125 x 3 = $375
studs - 40 (16" on center) @ $2 ea = $80
joists - 8 2x6x12' (24" on center) @ = $
etc.

I'm assuming you'll do the construction yourself which shouldn't be too hard.

Since the room will be free standing, be sure to include diagonal bracing on each of the walls and perhaps the ceiling for stability. When you stand the walls, bed them in a bead of acoustic caulk. Alternately you could use a construction adhesive like Liquid Nails, then the wall would be secured without nails.

You will of course need insulation in the walls and other misc. items like nails, drywall mud and tape, etc.

I don't know about your building codes up in WA, but here in Texas a detached garage is not considered a part of your residence and is not subject to the same requirements. Personally, I wouldn't bother with a permit, but then we're a different culture down here than in the more liberal states like CA and WA - less government intrusion into our lives. (I'm not trying to start an argument, it's just an observation)

Anyway, good luck.

[sharward]

. . . here in Texas a detached garage is not considered a part of your residence and is not subject to the same requirements.

That's true just about everywhere... But only if the detached garage is just that -- a garage. Once you finish it out and equip it with air conditioning or heating, it's often reclassified as "habitable space," and that's when the codes and/or permitting requirements become much more strict.

Personally, I wouldn't bother with a permit, but then we're a different culture down here than in the more liberal states like CA and WA - less government intrusion into our lives. (I'm not trying to start an argument, it's just an observation)

While I agree that California tends to have far more "government intrusion into our lives," the fact remains that in most parts of the country, building permits are required when building habitable spaces. It is also true that many (if not most) DIY homeowners do skirt the law, especially when the building activity is contained within an existing house, for a number of reasons -- it's easier to "fly under the radar" when the construction site isn't visible to the outside world, not to mention ignorance of the laws that exist. Even I am guilty in the past of this for minor home improvement projects over the years... After getting educated in this area over the past year, I have changed my ways.

I always recommend following the law. If the law doesn't make sense, work towards getting the law changed.

[Sandersd]

Rules are different everywhere you go, that's why I qualified my comments relative to my location and offered my opinion regarding permits based on my experience with our local building inspector. Ultimately an individual is responsible for his (or her) choices and actions and any ensuing consequences.

I also didn't notice in the post any mention of HVAC, bathrooms, etc. I'm sure lighting will be required but I doubt a box with a light will qualify as a "habitable" space, especially in a detached garage - more like a workshop or storage room.

Still, photoresistor should get the facts relevant to his locale and make his decision based on applicable requirements, as sharward has so adamantly pointed out.

Best regards to all,
Sandersd

[sharward]

I also didn't notice in the post any mention of HVAC, bathrooms, etc. I'm sure lighting will be required but I doubt a box with a light will qualify as a "habitable" space, especially in a detached garage - more like a workshop or storage room.

True -- that would be what they sometimes call a "utility room" or a "workshop," in which the space is not "conditioned." Once you add "conditioning" to the space, the rules get much more strict.

For example, the City of Fairfield (California) defines a "conditioned space" as "enclosed space that is provided with heating, cooling, humidification and dehumidification for the provisions of human comfort by transporting air through ducts and plenums, or by heated or cooled surfaces whose output is greater than 10 BTU per hour per square foot of floor area." (Source)

Either way, extending an electrical circuit usually requires a permit. (This is one of the "municipal sins" I admit to committing in the past.)

[Deluks]

my dad does not want to drill into the concrete floor of the garage

You may get away with not attaching the walls to the floor if you make sure each wall is very securely attached to the other two it makes contact with. With a ceiling on top (you will need a lid on the box, other wise sound will travel upwards) it shouldn't go anywhere.

im thinking accoustic caulk will definately be liberally used)

Oh Yes!

the plan is that the rooms will be connected to studs on an existing outter wall as well as the ceiling and that this should provide the necessary stabillity.

You definitely don't wanna do that, this will transmit sound to the outside - Get reading!

im currently actually torn as to whether i should have two rooms or just one big one.

On that budget, just 1 will have to do, otherwise you have to throw a second door, glass and an extra wall into the costs. Plus 19'x12' seems a bit tight to squeeze two rooms into. You could possibly put in a small vocal booth which could double as an isolation room for an amp.

You've also got electrics, lighting, door seals, acoustic treatment and ventilation to consider, so I suggest you spend many hours reading on this site before building anything or buying any more materials.

Your budget is very tight but you should be able to get the bulk of what you need if you keep the design simple. By which I mean timber, sheetrock, door, insulation and that's probably your $1000 blown. Think of ways to save money along the way, ask on local construction sites if they have any surplus materials they could let you have for cheap (or free).

And my top tip, go skip-raiding, I've had fire doors, new packs of rocksil, unused tubes of caulk, timber and electrical cable from the skip that was parked outside my work for a few months

Good luck!

[photoresistor]

Thankyou for all of the responses. I've been doing a lot of thinking about a lot of important issues you guys have brought up, so thankyou for all of your input.

First off, a little clarification: I dont have any plans to make this room conditioned or to install a bathroom or plumbing. Basically I just want a shell to help keep the noise in. And maybe a $1000 total budget is a little slim, but I'd at least like to aim for that, at least for the basic construction costs (material costs for 2x4's, sheetrock, etc...).

I've decided it will just be one room in order to keep costs down. I originally thought having two rooms would be nice but the added costs of construction and materials and the smaller sizes of the rooms have swayed me. Having one big room will make it more accomodable as a jam room as well, if the occasion rises.

I know that connecting the the new walls to the existing garage wall and ceiling would increase transmission loss but I thought it would help stability. If with the use of corner bracing and something like the liquid nails product the structure would be stable enough, I would do away with that plan. In that case Id have a ceiling as well.


----

I've been thinking more of that scenario and had some questions...

If I were to totally build a room within the room type of deal instead of just building three walls and joining them to an existing wall, how would I deal with having a 3-leaf barrier on the right side of the garage?

(there would be more room on the outside of the other walls but the wall on the right would be right next to the outside garage wall).

I guess I could tear down the layer of sheetrock on the existing wall on the inside, and only have layers of sheetrock on the inside of the new room (kind of double stud wall thing goin on?) but how would this space in between walls be sealed without having the inside room be connected to the existing wall? (hopefully my rambling can be followed.... im going to try and get some autocad drawings up here in the near future so hopefully it will be more clear).

I am continuing to do lots of reading on this forum and others... I admit I have more knowledge of accoustic treatment and the basic theories of sound isolation (mass spring mass) than practical/real life construction issues. I appreciate your experience and guiding thoughts through my ignorance.

-dan

[Deluks]

First off, a little clarification: I dont have any plans to make this room conditioned or to install a bathroom or plumbing.

Maybe not air conditioning but you should definitely consider ventilation. Especially if you want to use this as a jam room. It won't take very long to get stuffy, sweaty and uncomfortable in there with 2 or 3 musicians jumping around, plus you'll start to get tired and irritable if you are breathing each others armpit vapour!

It shouldn't be too expensive for the materials, just an extractor fan of some sort (inline type) and some ducting. It's better to factor something as essential as fresh, breathable air now in the design stage rather than tearing down your new walls and 'retrofitting'.

The downside is that having vents create a hole in your soundproofing, but this can be dealt with by a well thought-out design and meticulous construction and is well worth the hassle IMO.

I know that connecting the the new walls to the existing garage wall and ceiling would increase transmission loss but I thought it would help stability. If with the use of corner bracing and something like the liquid nails product the structure would be stable enough, I would do away with that plan. In that case Id have a ceiling as well.

Liquid nails? Whats wrong with real ones? Yes, corner bracing, preferably using heavy duty brackets, nail plates and galvanised band, to make sure all 4 inner walls are securely fastened to one another and you shouldn't have to drill the floor at all, plus attaching the inner ceiling to the tops of the wallplates and you should have a 'box' that isn't going anywhere.

Think of your inner room as an upside down cardboard box, resting on the floor and touching NO part of the outer structure.

If I were to totally build a room within the room type of deal instead of just building three walls and joining them to an existing wall, how would I deal with having a 3-leaf barrier on the right side of the garage?

(there would be more room on the outside of the other walls but the wall on the right would be right next to the outside garage wall).

Good question, you've certainly not had a wasted weekend I see

See the diagram on this thread http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewt ... ght=#27209, the grey wall is the outer garage wall, the brown forms the rest of my outer leaf (along with the bottom and right outer walls to which it connects) and the orange is the freestanding inner room, complete with 'lid' (the inner ceiling)
Although I am mostly using 18mm MDF for the walls which gives me added stability, you will probably need to brace your walls diagonally
(on the opposite side of the sheetrock) to give it extra strength.

See, you're making progress already [/quote]

[Sandersd]

I think your're probably more concerned with isolation than the whole triple-leaf thing. With that in mind, a functional design would be 2x4 or 2x6 stud walls and 2x8 ceiling joists. You can put metal or 1x4 diagonal bracing, but an easier alternative is to substitute a 4x8 sheet of plywood for the drywall in each corner. Use either one- but you must have lateral bracing for the walls.

Use 2 layers of 5/8" drywall laminated with joint compound (mud) on the exterior and the same on the interior but mount it on resiliant channels (ceiling too).

I agree you'll need some type of ventilation.

Here's a thought: by the time you buy all the lumber, doors, plywood, all expensive stuff, you could take that same cash and simply insulate and drywall (2 layers on RC) the interior of your garage and have adequate isolation to keep the neighbors happy and a finished garage for Dad.

Price it out and compare...

[photoresistor]

After looking at your design for your room, I am strongly persuaded to do something like that for my room... the outside wall would be attached to the existing walls and ceiling (only sheetrock on the outside of course). and then the inner wall would be freestanding with sheetrock on the inside, with its own ceiling so it would be decoupled from the outter wall except through the floor. Seems to me this would be the best route and could offer significant decrease in sound transmission loss over a single walled room.

I have a lot of reading ahead of me to fully understand everything that goes along with a design like that.... but is that the basic idea of that?

On ventilation: i was originally going to have a couple vent tubes but i hadnt thought to have a fan or anything... i guess ill have to look into this and the best methods of having ventilations without screwing over all the efforts to increase sound isolation.

any thoughts or suggestions/ideas/corrections?

[Deluks]

The only thing to remember with ventilation is that you have to have long ducts, with several 90 degree bends in, to reduce sound leakage. Also if you have one fan then it's better to have this extracting, rather than bringing fresh air in, which will find it's own path into the room to replace the extracted 'bad' air (as long as you leave a couple of vents, again with fancy ducting)

Do searches on the forums here, search hvac and ventilation for ideas.

Oh, I second the idea on using plywood, or preferably mdf instead of drywall in each corner. Used in conjuction with the diagonal bracing, (make a big wide 'V' on each of the 4 walls using 4x2's laid flat against the uprights) then that room will be as rigid as er, a very rigid thing!

[Sandersd]

Please don't use MDF instead of plywood for the corner bracing - it is very dense but does not have the structural strength necessary to resist lateral loads without risking tearout of the screws (or nails). If you want more density use 3/4" plywood. Also, the plywood is used instead of diagonal 1x4 bracing - you don't need both.

How about an attic fan for ventilation? You will of course need baffled ductwork for the intake and exhaust,as Deluks pointed out.