Hello,
This is my first post. I am very close to starting the building works for the construction of my home studio. Me and my girlfriend own the whole ground floor and part of the first floor of a decent sized semi-detached Victorian property in North London. There is one other apartment in the building, their kitchen is directly above where the studio room will be and they have a roof terrace above the live room. We also have attached neighbours on one side as well.
The works will involve knocking out a chimney breast and a bathroom, re-building a smaller bathroom, and re-designing the lay-out so that I will have about 10 x 24 to play with. I have spent quite a bit of time lurking around this forum and taken a lot on board to create this design. I have a structural engineer visiting on Monday morning to design any load bearing beams that may be needed. And as soon as I have the designs I will appoint the builders who have already quoted me.
The ceiling is my main concern because it is only 230cm / 7'8" ft high. My idea is to take out the current plasterboard and fit new joists parralel to the old ones, attaching 2 layers plasterboard and 1 layer soundproofing mats to the new joists via resilinet bars. Obviously the void would be filled with rw45 rock wool.
I would really appreciate any advice and won't be offended by any criticism.
Thanks,
Trevor
Here's my Home Studio Plans
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Temas
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John Sayers
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Temas
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Thanks John,
Yes, the fireplace column might have to stay. The structural engineer will be able to tell me for sure on Monday. A gallows bracket is out of the question, because the next-door neighbours have removed their chimney breast. We're trying to persuade the people upstairs to remove their chimney as well, then there would be nothing left to support so we could remove the whole thing.
The drywall would be 5cm RW45 rockwool between timber battens, with resilient bars supporting one layer 15mm 'SoundBloc' plasterboard and one layer 12mm Soundbloc with one layer of 5kg/m2 2mm soundproofing mats (http://www.customaudiodesigns.co.uk/sou ... iermat.htm) sandwiched between the plasterboard.
Is there any other improvements I could make to this drywall design without losing to much space? The Ceiling would also be the same type of construction.
Cheers,
Trevor
Yes, the fireplace column might have to stay. The structural engineer will be able to tell me for sure on Monday. A gallows bracket is out of the question, because the next-door neighbours have removed their chimney breast. We're trying to persuade the people upstairs to remove their chimney as well, then there would be nothing left to support so we could remove the whole thing.
The drywall would be 5cm RW45 rockwool between timber battens, with resilient bars supporting one layer 15mm 'SoundBloc' plasterboard and one layer 12mm Soundbloc with one layer of 5kg/m2 2mm soundproofing mats (http://www.customaudiodesigns.co.uk/sou ... iermat.htm) sandwiched between the plasterboard.
Is there any other improvements I could make to this drywall design without losing to much space? The Ceiling would also be the same type of construction.
Cheers,
Trevor
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John Sayers
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knightfly
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Your wall design is fine, but as John pointed out you have a triple leaf design in the ceiling, and unnecessary expense/hassle with the resilient channel; since your ceiling design has separate joists, you don't need resilient mounts.
However, if you build as shown, you will very likely hear MORE of your upstairs noise, not less; you need to put the plasterboard tight against your upper floor, the sound mat can stay if you like - it may actually help damp some footfall sound.
Your new joists only need to protrude about 1 inch below the old ones, so the lower plasterboard layers don't touch the upper joists - fill snugly with standard fluffy fiberglass insulation, this will damp the lower panels (and the upper somewhat, as long as there's a bit of compression) -
If you have quite a bit of LOW frequency noise upstairs, or need to keep YOUR low frequency noise from escaping, the inside-out wall is NOT what you want - it will reduce the air gap and worsen LF isolation more than mids and highs.
If, however, you're more concerned with headroom, then John's ceiling makes more sense - it's a trade-off, you can't have BOTH... Steve
However, if you build as shown, you will very likely hear MORE of your upstairs noise, not less; you need to put the plasterboard tight against your upper floor, the sound mat can stay if you like - it may actually help damp some footfall sound.
Your new joists only need to protrude about 1 inch below the old ones, so the lower plasterboard layers don't touch the upper joists - fill snugly with standard fluffy fiberglass insulation, this will damp the lower panels (and the upper somewhat, as long as there's a bit of compression) -
If you have quite a bit of LOW frequency noise upstairs, or need to keep YOUR low frequency noise from escaping, the inside-out wall is NOT what you want - it will reduce the air gap and worsen LF isolation more than mids and highs.
If, however, you're more concerned with headroom, then John's ceiling makes more sense - it's a trade-off, you can't have BOTH... Steve
Soooo, when a Musician dies, do they hear the white noise at the end of the tunnel??!? Hmmmm...
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John Sayers
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Ok - I realise the pic I grabbed wasn't totally correct as his ceiling is above the rafters, not below as the pic shows.
Temas's plan was to add a layer of soundmat to the wall, build a frame with insulation in it, add resilient channel and a layer of drywall, soundmat and drywall. His airgap was the thickness of his insulation.
My wall does exactly the same thing - don't be confused because of the framing, framing is only a method of holding up a skin. My skin is in exactly the same place as his except my airspace includes the whole airspace between the inner and outer walls up into the ceiling area, and the whole frame is disconnected from the outer wall thus no need for resilient channel. I've also included internal acoustic treatment which would need to have been added to Temas's original proposal thus reducing his overall room size.
Temas could build his original ceiling idea, with the triple skin ammendment that Steve mentioned, provided the new ceiling beams sit on the new internal frame and the ceiling drywall. without RC, connects only to the internal frame, but he would still be left with a low drywall ceiling to treat.
cheers
john
Temas's plan was to add a layer of soundmat to the wall, build a frame with insulation in it, add resilient channel and a layer of drywall, soundmat and drywall. His airgap was the thickness of his insulation.
My wall does exactly the same thing - don't be confused because of the framing, framing is only a method of holding up a skin. My skin is in exactly the same place as his except my airspace includes the whole airspace between the inner and outer walls up into the ceiling area, and the whole frame is disconnected from the outer wall thus no need for resilient channel. I've also included internal acoustic treatment which would need to have been added to Temas's original proposal thus reducing his overall room size.
Temas could build his original ceiling idea, with the triple skin ammendment that Steve mentioned, provided the new ceiling beams sit on the new internal frame and the ceiling drywall. without RC, connects only to the internal frame, but he would still be left with a low drywall ceiling to treat.
cheers
john
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Temas
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Thanks. This is great stuff.
Regarding the ceiling:
Also, my structural engineer advised me to have cross battens to support the existing joists because they are not completely straight - would these cross battens be ok going under the plasterboard?
With regards to the skin of the internal drywalls:
Do you agree with my use of barrier mats for this application?
Do I need the barrier mat up against the external wall?
Do I need the RCs or should I just have more layers of plasterboard instead?
Thanks again for all your advice.
Regarding the ceiling:
Understood.since your ceiling design has separate joists, you don't need resilient mounts.
Ok, will do. Did you notice in my design that I'd wrapped the mats around the existing joists as well - is this necessary, or should I just lay it flat against the under-side of the floorboards?you need to put the plasterboard tight against your upper floor, the sound mat can stay if you like - it may actually help damp some footfall sound.
Also, my structural engineer advised me to have cross battens to support the existing joists because they are not completely straight - would these cross battens be ok going under the plasterboard?
Thanks for the tip - I wondered how far they needed to protrude.Your new joists only need to protrude about 1 inch below the old ones, so the lower plasterboard layers don't touch the upper joists - fill snugly with standard fluffy fiberglass insulation, this will damp the lower panels
I'm sorry, what's an inside-out wall? I'll do a search see if I can figure it out.the inside-out wall is NOT what you want - it will reduce the air gap and worsen LF isolation more than mids and highs.
With John's design - Would I have to remove the the existing joists to fit the new beam? If so, this would be complicated and expensive because I'd need to pay the structural engineer again to design more stuff. I will study it again though, to try and fully understand how it would work.If, however, you're more concerned with headroom, then John's ceiling makes more sense
I'd thought about this - but how do attach the internal frame the external wall? I will look into this.provided the new ceiling beams sit on the new internal frame
I think I'm ok with this - there has to be a compromise.but he would still be left with a low drywall ceiling to treat.
With regards to the skin of the internal drywalls:
Do you agree with my use of barrier mats for this application?
Do I need the barrier mat up against the external wall?
Do I need the RCs or should I just have more layers of plasterboard instead?
Thanks again for all your advice.
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knightfly
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Did you notice in my design that I'd wrapped the mats around the existing joists as well - is this necessary, or should I just lay it flat against the under-side of the floorboards?
I would just lay it flat, then cut sections of plasterboard to fit between the joists, caulked and supported by wood cleats approx. 25mm square. Your goal is a single leaf of mass, made up of your upper floor, the mat, and the plasterboard, with NO AIR between any layers of this leaf.
my structural engineer advised me to have cross battens to support the existing joists because they are not completely straight - would these cross battens be ok going under the plasterboard?
They'll be fine; you just need to cut your insulation and fit it between them.
I'm sorry, what's an inside-out wall? I'll do a search see if I can figure it out.
It's a wall (or ceiling) with the framing on the opposite side from normal; the purpose is to only use one frame to both support the wallboard AND give cavities for acoustic treatment (insulation) which then gets covered with cloth stapled to the framing; saves some weight and cost of materials.
With John's design - Would I have to remove the the existing joists to fit the new beam? If so, this would be complicated and expensive because I'd need to pay the structural engineer again to design more stuff. I will study it again though, to try and fully understand how it would work.
No; the extra beam would bear on your INNER wall frames, which should NOT have hard contact with the outer wall mass (brick) - then you don't need RC there.
provided the new ceiling beams sit on the new internal frame
I'd thought about this - but how do attach the internal frame the external wall? I will look into this.
You don't, except for resilient sway brackets - you attach the internal ceiling frame to the INTERNAL wall frame only. What you want is an inner, isolated frame for your inner skin(leaf of mass) which is your layers of wallboard.
With regards to the skin of the internal drywalls:
Do you agree with my use of barrier mats for this application?
No. it's cheaper to just use another layer of plasterboard.
Do I need the barrier mat up against the external wall?
No. This stuff acts as a vapor barrier, and will cause rot/mold when used in the wrong place within a wall construction. Another reason NOT to use it at all.
Do I need the RCs or should I just have more layers of plasterboard instead?
If you can't have your inner wall frames isolated from the outer brick, then you'll need RC there; remember the overall goal is to have your inner wallboard leaf with NO HARD CONTACT to the outer, structural part of the building; there are several ways to do this, but if you DON'T do it you'll lose quite a bit of isolation... Steve
I would just lay it flat, then cut sections of plasterboard to fit between the joists, caulked and supported by wood cleats approx. 25mm square. Your goal is a single leaf of mass, made up of your upper floor, the mat, and the plasterboard, with NO AIR between any layers of this leaf.
my structural engineer advised me to have cross battens to support the existing joists because they are not completely straight - would these cross battens be ok going under the plasterboard?
They'll be fine; you just need to cut your insulation and fit it between them.
I'm sorry, what's an inside-out wall? I'll do a search see if I can figure it out.
It's a wall (or ceiling) with the framing on the opposite side from normal; the purpose is to only use one frame to both support the wallboard AND give cavities for acoustic treatment (insulation) which then gets covered with cloth stapled to the framing; saves some weight and cost of materials.
With John's design - Would I have to remove the the existing joists to fit the new beam? If so, this would be complicated and expensive because I'd need to pay the structural engineer again to design more stuff. I will study it again though, to try and fully understand how it would work.
No; the extra beam would bear on your INNER wall frames, which should NOT have hard contact with the outer wall mass (brick) - then you don't need RC there.
provided the new ceiling beams sit on the new internal frame
I'd thought about this - but how do attach the internal frame the external wall? I will look into this.
You don't, except for resilient sway brackets - you attach the internal ceiling frame to the INTERNAL wall frame only. What you want is an inner, isolated frame for your inner skin(leaf of mass) which is your layers of wallboard.
With regards to the skin of the internal drywalls:
Do you agree with my use of barrier mats for this application?
No. it's cheaper to just use another layer of plasterboard.
Do I need the barrier mat up against the external wall?
No. This stuff acts as a vapor barrier, and will cause rot/mold when used in the wrong place within a wall construction. Another reason NOT to use it at all.
Do I need the RCs or should I just have more layers of plasterboard instead?
If you can't have your inner wall frames isolated from the outer brick, then you'll need RC there; remember the overall goal is to have your inner wallboard leaf with NO HARD CONTACT to the outer, structural part of the building; there are several ways to do this, but if you DON'T do it you'll lose quite a bit of isolation... Steve
Last edited by knightfly on Tue Mar 14, 2006 6:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
Soooo, when a Musician dies, do they hear the white noise at the end of the tunnel??!? Hmmmm...
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knightfly
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Tear-out speed is OK, but FORCE them to slow down when putting it back; there are several things that "normal" carpenters routinely do that will KILL your isolation if you let them do it. Stop. Think. Ask us first, and you'll have a much better chance of liking the end result... Steve
(If you're in a hurry, PM me - I might miss posts here in the Design forum otherwise)
(If you're in a hurry, PM me - I might miss posts here in the Design forum otherwise)
Soooo, when a Musician dies, do they hear the white noise at the end of the tunnel??!? Hmmmm...
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Temas
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There hasn't been much progress for one reason or another, but I have re-designed my drywalls so that resilient sway brackets will support a timber frame, which also supports the new ceiling joists. Are the brackets in the right places?
Also, does anybody know what resilient sway brackets are known as in the UK, because I can't find any documentation about them. If not can anyone point me to an internet link about the right kind to buy or a shop that supplies them so that I can show my builders what they are looking for?
Cheers
Also, does anybody know what resilient sway brackets are known as in the UK, because I can't find any documentation about them. If not can anyone point me to an internet link about the right kind to buy or a shop that supplies them so that I can show my builders what they are looking for?
Cheers