Semi Mobile/Permanent Patch Bay System

[woods]

I need help designing a semi mobile / semi permanent patch bay.

Thanks,

Woods

Patch Bay Brain Storming

I have a lot of recording equipment set up in a temporary location that is serving as a studio for the next 2 or 3 months. However, even though it is temporary I am very much in need of a patch bay. The patch bay would have to be designed so that it could be moveable to the permanent location when the time comes.

So,… I am wondering if a patch bay system in a road case can be designed to take care of patching now and then also be able to be unplugged and then moved to the permanent location and then plugged back in and used there. In other words my vision is of a patch bay in an SKB 8 space case. Is this possible? And how should we proceed to map out (on paper) and then design and build the patch bay?

I realize that in order for anyone to give me advice on this I’ll list the gear set up for our studio. So here goes… Studio philosophy is all analog outboard preamps, compressors and digital FX. Mixing is Soundcraft Ghost. Live room is connected to control room via 16 channel XLR snake and 4 TRS for phones. Thhe snake mic channels go directly to the out board preamps. And then go directly from the preamps to the recorder (Alesis HD 24)

Recording device (storage) is Alesis HD24 (24 TRS analog in and out) Except overdubs which are thru a 2 channe Cranesong HEDD into format converter then light pipe into the HD24. All gear is in 8 space SKB cases.

There is also a 6 channel OZ Audio Head phone amp. It has Stereo in from the Ghost Mix B. And it also has 4 TRS direct inputs that allow us to ad 4 signals (that are important to the mix) into each individual head phone mix. These direct injects into the OZ would probably come from the direct outs of the Ghost. In other words we can create separate mixes for up to 4 sets of cans. The OZ Audio Matrix phone mixer is all TRS in and out. We also want to be able to ad compression and effects into the Headphone mix. But this could probably be don at the Ghost before we send Mix B to the OZ Audio headphone system.



Gear List

Soundcraft Ghost 32 channel
Alesis HDE24 24 TRS in and out
Alesis Masterlink XLR in and out

Preamps

DW Fearn VT2 2 ch XLR in and out
API 3124 4 ch XLR in and out
Buzz Audio 2 ch XLR in and out
Avalon 737 1 ch XLR in/out
Demeter Tube Bass Pre TRS in / TRS and XLR out

Compressors

4 x UREI 1176 Terminal Strip in and out
1 x UREI 1178 XLR in and out
1 x UREI 1178 Terminal Strip in and out
2 X UREI LA4 XLR in and out
1 x DBX 160x TRS in and out
Avalon 747 Stereo XLR in and out
Manley Vari Mu Stereo XLR in and out
Empirical Labs Fatso Stereo XLR in and out or TRS in and out

FX

Lexicon PCM 70
Kurzweil KSP8 4 stereo (8 mono) TRS in and out.

[woods]

Forgot some out board

Manley Massive Passive EQ 2 ch XLR in and out
Summit Audio EQP 200 EQ 2 ch XLR in and out
Tube Tech PE1C EQ 1 ch XLR in and out
Tube Tech CL1B Compressor XLR in and out Side chain TRS

Woods

[woods]

OK....Here's a specific question:

How do I get my XLR based gear to connect to the patch bay? Do I have to make specil cables or can I get a patch bay that allows me to plug my XLR cables straight into the back of the patch bay??

Thanks,

woods

[Aaronw]

Greetings and Welcome to the site. First off, if you can update your profile to include where in the world you are. Thanks.

It's all going to be a custom setup for you. So heat up the soldering iron.

The easiest (in terms of making it mobile) would to get the patchbays that breakout to EDAC/Elco or DL connectors. Make your harnesses from Elco/EDAC/DL to XLR or 1/4" connectors for your equipment.

The catch...be prepared to spend a few thousand. You can find them used, but if buy them new, the bays are (last time I checked) about $1200 a piece. You might find them cheaper, say $800 or so.

Neutrik, ADC, Re'an would be the first choices for the bays.

Pinouts for your gear (and bays) will depend on several factors. Do you want normals, half normals, denormals? Do you want the entire console wired to the bays as well? etc, etc..

And of course, the fun job of all those little pins and putting them in the right hole.

BTW...nice gear list.

[woods]

So does that mean that there are no poatch bays that will allow me to plug my xlr and trs cables in the back of it?

[woods]

I am just completely ignorant when it comes to a patch bay. I've never seen one in the back so I don't know what kind of connections are made there. Are they 1/4" in the back or what? Somebody mentioned about sticking wires into little holes or something like that.

Do I have to make a special cable with an XLR on one end and then what ever the special connector is on the back of a patch bay.

What is the most typical connector type on the back of Patch Bays?

[woods]

If I understand you all -- would the ELCO method negate having to do any soldering? So I guess - that patch bays with ELCO inputs and outputs on the back atre available?

Also is the sound quality affected negatively when using ELCO connectors. As I piccture this - it seems that the ELCO wires on the inside must be extremely small. Are big studios using this ELCO type patch bay?

Is there a good online document that might outline all this and perhaps show some pictures of a patch bay from the rear. A picture is worth a 110 words and I'd like to see a rear view with the cables coming out of the patch bay and going to the equipment - especially if the equipment is not too faqr away and you can see the cables going from the patch bay and to the equipment all in one picture?

[woods]

If I'm following things - Can I acquire ELCO snakes?

My preamps and compressors are pretty much all XLR in and out. The HD24 and the GHost are all TRS. As I am using the Ghost strictly for monitoring during recording and then mixing.

So to get started I would need two XLR snakes (one female ends and one male)
Then I would need a few TRS/Elco snakes. For the HD24 24 in. I have 10 channels of out board pre so the most I would record live or at once isw 10 channels. But I guess I need all 24 channels to be wired to the patch bay so that I can patch preamps to HD24 input tracks from the front of the Bay.


Then an Elco/TRS to go from Bay to Ghost tape returns. I suppose there has to be a separate ELCO/TRS for all the inserts on the GHost??? Then Elco/TRS for the Aux/end/return. Then an Elco/TRS for the bus section inserts etc.

Holy schitz --- Am I on the right ttrack?

BUT ... BUT ... ... with an ELCO system ... Is my soldering limited to just making the front patch cables?

[Aaronw]

Sorry for not getting back to you. I'm on "vacation" this week (or least suppose to be...I've had 8 calls from work today already... ).

Look under the sticky at the top of the forum. There's one there for Technical Resources and Info. There are links to patchbays and other good info.

I'm just popping in for a minute, but will try and get back later. Start there and see if that answers some of your questions.

Thanks,
Aaron

[kendale]

Aloha and welcome to the forum, Woods!

Congrats on your studio build! Say, any chance you could please:

Edit your profile to include your location. This is very important, because this is a worldwide resource, and as such, material costs and availability vary widely. For example, masonry is cheaper than gypsum in some parts of the globe, whereas it's the exact opposite in other regions.

You'll probably get more of a response by doing so and this will really come in handy two or three posts down the road. It's also part of the forum guidelines: http://www.johnlsayers.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3231 Thanks!

Looking forward to your build!

Aloha

[kendale]

Aloha Woods,

Here's a good tutorial: http://www.prosoundweb.com/live/labbest/elco/elco.shtml

Hope this helps,

Aloha

[woods]

Someone said that if I were to use premade DB25 snakes my setup may be hard to group into "eights" on the patchbay. Could you explain why this may be? This is an area of patch bays that I am having difficulty with. This could go a long way to clearing up my mental block about the whol patch bay thing. I can't even think about it to the point where I can diagram it yet.

Another way for you to answer this would be for me to ask this: Why couldn't I just arrange my equipment side of the patching idea around the cables. Say if I have a DB25 to XLR m then think about all my gear that needs to be hooked up to the XLR m.

Also, could I not make an extension-adaptor? In other words if I needed to turn one of the XLR male jacks into a longer TRS end I could just make a cable that would plug on to the end of the XLR male and voila I have a longer TRS ended cable.

[kendale]

Aloha,

Hey, thanks for updating your profile.

Someone said that if I were to use premade DB25 snakes my setup may be hard to group into "eights" on the patchbay. Could you explain why this may be?

Depends on if its a 24x2 or 26x2 array. I would go with a 24x2, personally.

Another way for you to answer this would be for me to ask this: Why couldn't I just arrange my equipment side of the patching idea around the cables. Say if I have a DB25 to XLR m then think about all my gear that needs to be hooked up to the XLR m.

If I understand your question correctly, this would put all XLRm's on the same run, all the TRS's on the same run, etc.

While this might standardize the terminations on each run, it might end up combining unrelated outboard units on the front panel, which may not be the most logical or ergonomical way to group your front panel assignments.

Also, could I not make an extension-adaptor? In other words if I needed to turn one of the XLR male jacks into a longer TRS end I could just make a cable that would plug on to the end of the XLR male and voila I have a longer TRS ended cable.

While almost anything is possible, and that approach might work in a pinch, over an extended length of time it would be placing an extra amount of strain on the cable terminations/jack panel, which over time may lead to intermittant signals and ultimately at some point signal or jack component failure.

My approach was to group similar areas/outboard together on the front panels where possible:
- channel inserts
- channel sends/recorder inputs
- recorder outputs/tape returns

- mix A - DAT/CD input
- mix B - DAT/CD input
- CD outputs - tape in A
- DAT outputs - tape in B

- pre's
- comps, limiters
- delays, reverbs

- keyboards, sound modules
- etc.

After planning out your front panel/groupings, then determine how you will need to terminate the cable runs accordingly.

You might try contacting some of the sites below and see what kind of suggestions they might have.

Some links:
https://www6.adc.com/ecom/hier?NODE=OND63475
http://www.whirlwindusa.com/audio01.html
http://www.patchbays.com/Wired.htm
http://www.haveinc.com/products/cable3.html
http://www.gepco.com/products/assemblie ... /intro.htm

Hope this helps,

Aloha

[woods]

I see. Well is there a typical way that gear is grouped on the front panel?

[gullfo]

generally you have outputs on top and inputs on bottom of each bay. you tend to group by function - record mixboard/pres outs -> record machine ins on one and record machine outs -> mixboard in on another

this way you are patched for basic recording on each channel and playing it back. the outs on top are good for half-normals (which means signal path not interupted on insert - typically the top on most bays configured as half-normal) because you can route the output to some additional effects or tracks. inputs need to be fully normal (which means interupted on insert - which is on the bottom - typically) as you only want one input at a time.

then group things like busses and aux so you can mix and match with processors or recording to DAT.PC.etc...

this may help
http://concertsm.concordia.ca/Programs/ ... ostex.html