Hello,
Your Forum Rocks!
Thank you so much for all you guys do.
Um yeah,
Taking http://www.johnlsayers.com/HR/index1.htm into consideration and http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html(the low freq absorber page)
and reading a lot on this forum, I am building the walls of my control room right out of the manual out of sheet rock. The room is just over 3 meters high and 467 cm wide and 6meters long. The whole back area will be a huge bass trap and a diffusor. My only questions so far are:
Q1. All the exterior walls are brick so I am putting in a sheet rock shell with metal studs. The drawing doesn't really specify but can I do the brick wall > insulation > sheet rock > hangers > hemholtz style slats on the back wall?
Q2. I also plan to put hangers in the ceiling can I just put them in above a splayed sheet rock lowered ceiling with insulation?
Q3. Finally, I could not find any info on a proper covering for the interior. Looking at all the studio pics....is it possible to just slap some paint on after sealing your sheetrock?
Thanx in advance
TIK
Control Room Surface
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sixtiksix
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knightfly
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1 - Sure, just keep in mind that diffusion/reflective walls closer than about 10-12 feet behind your head are likely to give early reflection problems (phase smearing/stereo imaging problems), so you might want to be careful there.
2 - You can install hangers that way, but if you have enough room up there for hangers you would get better bass trapping by also replacing some sections of the ceiling at/near corners with absorbent, which would vent more bass energy into that plenum for the hangers to absorb.
3 - Depends on your walls and which treatments you use where - for slat absorbers, the slats are sometimes just stained and varnished - sometimes they are covered with acoustic cloth. Same with absorbent material - people use burlap, Guilford of Maine cloth, anything that breathes and isn't flammable (there are spray treatments that work for normal cloth) - typically, there won't be a large area that's just sheet rock. Painting sheet rock is fine, although some people use cloth over the entire walls to disguise what's been done for various wall treatments. You could also paint the (exposed) sheet rock to match or contrast with any cloth coverings on absorbent panels - decorating is a pretty individual thing, just don't paint absorbent materials without realizing that you'll change their properties... Steve
2 - You can install hangers that way, but if you have enough room up there for hangers you would get better bass trapping by also replacing some sections of the ceiling at/near corners with absorbent, which would vent more bass energy into that plenum for the hangers to absorb.
3 - Depends on your walls and which treatments you use where - for slat absorbers, the slats are sometimes just stained and varnished - sometimes they are covered with acoustic cloth. Same with absorbent material - people use burlap, Guilford of Maine cloth, anything that breathes and isn't flammable (there are spray treatments that work for normal cloth) - typically, there won't be a large area that's just sheet rock. Painting sheet rock is fine, although some people use cloth over the entire walls to disguise what's been done for various wall treatments. You could also paint the (exposed) sheet rock to match or contrast with any cloth coverings on absorbent panels - decorating is a pretty individual thing, just don't paint absorbent materials without realizing that you'll change their properties... Steve
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sixtiksix
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Thanx for the info,
If you look at the hangers on the low freq absorbers section of:http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html
They show two lines just below the hangers and note it as a false ceiling.
Q> that is obviosly not sheetrock is it?
The design shtuff is fun and this forum is great but sometimes when it's actually hammer and nail time it can be confusing.
Thanx again,
TIK
If you look at the hangers on the low freq absorbers section of:http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html
They show two lines just below the hangers and note it as a false ceiling.
Q> that is obviosly not sheetrock is it?
The design shtuff is fun and this forum is great but sometimes when it's actually hammer and nail time it can be confusing.
Thanx again,
TIK
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knightfly
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" that is obviosly not sheetrock is it?" -
No, it's cloth stretched over a light frame, similar to the wall example in the drawing just below that one -
There are as many ways of doing this type of thing as there are builders - some will work better than others, depending on the understanding and proficiency of the builder.
One thing is that any trapping that's done in conjunction with a wall will also affect sound isolation, so you want to isolate better than you thought you needed to before adding traps in the room(s) - it costs more to do it, but it's better if you build your double leaf isolation structure separate from any acoustic treatment if possible - beyond that, if there is enough space (and strength) in your construction, it would be possible to build two different types of bass trap into a sloped ceiling at the same time.
This would take some serious support framing, but it's possible to build the visible ceiling (sloped up to the rear for best Reflection Free Zone) as a panel type bass trap - light front panels, heavy rear panels, fiberglass inside) and then, behind all that, do the bass hanger approach - this part would need vents placed around the perimeter (high pressure areas) and have absorbent (703 or rockwool) covering those vents - bass trapping would then be handled by the surface panel traps as well as the inner, hanger-absorbed cavities -
In order not to cause more problems than you fix, though, you need to consider the whole room and what's necessary to achieve a BALANCED absorption through the entire audio frequency range - for this, check the Reverb Calculator on the SAE site (be sure to run it for each frequency available)
Just a thought - if it's too confusing at this time, your original question was answered first. As you study this stuff, you'll become even MORE confused, and then one day you'll suddenly understand EVERYTHING (yeah, right) - Seriously though, it does eventually get easier... Steve
No, it's cloth stretched over a light frame, similar to the wall example in the drawing just below that one -
There are as many ways of doing this type of thing as there are builders - some will work better than others, depending on the understanding and proficiency of the builder.
One thing is that any trapping that's done in conjunction with a wall will also affect sound isolation, so you want to isolate better than you thought you needed to before adding traps in the room(s) - it costs more to do it, but it's better if you build your double leaf isolation structure separate from any acoustic treatment if possible - beyond that, if there is enough space (and strength) in your construction, it would be possible to build two different types of bass trap into a sloped ceiling at the same time.
This would take some serious support framing, but it's possible to build the visible ceiling (sloped up to the rear for best Reflection Free Zone) as a panel type bass trap - light front panels, heavy rear panels, fiberglass inside) and then, behind all that, do the bass hanger approach - this part would need vents placed around the perimeter (high pressure areas) and have absorbent (703 or rockwool) covering those vents - bass trapping would then be handled by the surface panel traps as well as the inner, hanger-absorbed cavities -
In order not to cause more problems than you fix, though, you need to consider the whole room and what's necessary to achieve a BALANCED absorption through the entire audio frequency range - for this, check the Reverb Calculator on the SAE site (be sure to run it for each frequency available)
Just a thought - if it's too confusing at this time, your original question was answered first. As you study this stuff, you'll become even MORE confused, and then one day you'll suddenly understand EVERYTHING (yeah, right) - Seriously though, it does eventually get easier... Steve
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sixtiksix
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Thanx again,
Really great advice! Hmm, so, along my back wall I have brick>fiberglass>sheetrock>hangers>fiberglass>cloth>wall to wall, ceiling to floor wooden slats...
I plan to install the wooden slats at various distances apart (like in the deal um, manual). I siliconed the crap out of the sheetrock and it is definitely airtight. The slats will give me a 4 meter by 3 meter hemholtz oscillator. Once I get the damn thing built I can take measurements with my RME Hammerfall card and a friend has a sophisticated mic, spec analyzer and pink noise thang.
I am going to slap in some panel traps as you suggested. I will make the sheet rock ceiling level with hangers above it and then have another ceiling going from somewhere above my window in the front shooting all the way up and back with panel traps as well additional hangers....
Wish I could show you this nightmare...lol
Thank you
TIK
Really great advice! Hmm, so, along my back wall I have brick>fiberglass>sheetrock>hangers>fiberglass>cloth>wall to wall, ceiling to floor wooden slats...
I plan to install the wooden slats at various distances apart (like in the deal um, manual). I siliconed the crap out of the sheetrock and it is definitely airtight. The slats will give me a 4 meter by 3 meter hemholtz oscillator. Once I get the damn thing built I can take measurements with my RME Hammerfall card and a friend has a sophisticated mic, spec analyzer and pink noise thang.
I am going to slap in some panel traps as you suggested. I will make the sheet rock ceiling level with hangers above it and then have another ceiling going from somewhere above my window in the front shooting all the way up and back with panel traps as well additional hangers....
Wish I could show you this nightmare...lol
Thank you
TIK
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knightfly
- Senior Member
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"Wish I could show you this nightmare...lol" -
Me too - I'm not clear whether you will end up with a triple leaf construction from your description; I hope not. If you have any doubts that you will only end up with two centers of mass that are sealed (between you and the world) then we need to discuss it further - your acoustic treatments need to NOT constitute a hermetically sealed leaf, or they will seriously compromise your isolation (particularly lower frequencies) - that's why I mentioned the vents around the perimeter of the false ceiling when it's made of more solid materials (like panel traps)
Any way of posting a basic drawing of your plan? Might prevent some problems... Steve
Me too - I'm not clear whether you will end up with a triple leaf construction from your description; I hope not. If you have any doubts that you will only end up with two centers of mass that are sealed (between you and the world) then we need to discuss it further - your acoustic treatments need to NOT constitute a hermetically sealed leaf, or they will seriously compromise your isolation (particularly lower frequencies) - that's why I mentioned the vents around the perimeter of the false ceiling when it's made of more solid materials (like panel traps)
Any way of posting a basic drawing of your plan? Might prevent some problems... Steve
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sixtiksix
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Ok, here is a pic of the back wall, it is brick then glass in between metal studs then sheet rock then siliconed. I was going to put another wall in front of the hangers but now am looking at cloth. The only problem is the concrete from which the hangers are hanging will not be isolated. As you can possibly see the concrete ceiling has beams going across and I am planning to put hangers in between like I did in the live room. Then sheet rock then a false ceiling made out of panel traps and vents like you are saying. I could build another wall in front of these hangers and then bass traps with a diffusor in the middle. Oh, by the way I have a lot of material left but am mostly out of cash. Can I just build a diffusor using wooden blocks at random heights....I am talking like 8 by 4 foot or something....slapping it in the middle and slats down both side with more hangers....whew...
Thanx for hanging in there,
TIK
Thanx for hanging in there,
TIK
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giles117
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sixtiksix
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You would not be foolish for asking any question. Um, I am using a staple gun to afix the fiberglass to the wood....I hope I am not the fool..Here you can see what I am bumbling through as we speak. This is on the left side front just by the window. As you may see the metal studded wall is six degrees and opening up to the back of the room where the hangers are yet to be covered. I am going to put sheet rock on the side walls and possibly in front of the hangers on the back wall and then add panel traps, absorbent, diffusors and then jump of the top of the studio...lol
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knightfly
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First, I resized your pix earlier so people won't have to scroll sideways to read the text - any others you post I'd appreciate it if you can put them into Paint and resize them to 60% of what they've been...
Second, before you finish that hanger wall you need to look at the pic labeled "False wall with acoustic hangers" here -
http://www.saecollege.de/reference_mate ... encies.htm
note the pink stuff against the wall - this is more insulation - preferably rigid fiberglass or rockwool; without it, the bricks will make that cavity too "live" - the point is absorption, and the hangers are there to SUPPLEMENT the bass trap, not take its place.
Are you doing another of those walls on the other side of your mix position? if not, we need to talk about symmetry. If that's the live room side, cool...
Have you used the reverb calculator here
http://www.saecollege.de/reference_mate ... m#verbcalc
to see if your overall reverb times are uniform over frequency? If not, now's the time - add all your surfaces into the calculator, and check at all frequencies listed in the calculator to see what the RT is - if it's not fairly uniform, you need to re-think your acoustic treatment plan BEFORE it's built - that should at least get you CLOSE to a usable sound field. CR's should usually be between .25 seconds and .5 seconds, live rooms usually longer - it's uneven reverb times that make a room sound "off", so this is important.
The "free advertisement" is great, but I was kinda hoping you'd do that AFTER all the walls are done...
Stapling the insulation on the hangers will work, as long as the staples are long enough to get a good bite - some people tape it, glue it, etc - whatever keeps it there.
Be sure and keep asking questions til you're sure on all this - doing things over, other than sex, pizza, beer and your favorite guitar licks, just plain SUCKS... Steve
Second, before you finish that hanger wall you need to look at the pic labeled "False wall with acoustic hangers" here -
http://www.saecollege.de/reference_mate ... encies.htm
note the pink stuff against the wall - this is more insulation - preferably rigid fiberglass or rockwool; without it, the bricks will make that cavity too "live" - the point is absorption, and the hangers are there to SUPPLEMENT the bass trap, not take its place.
Are you doing another of those walls on the other side of your mix position? if not, we need to talk about symmetry. If that's the live room side, cool...
Have you used the reverb calculator here
http://www.saecollege.de/reference_mate ... m#verbcalc
to see if your overall reverb times are uniform over frequency? If not, now's the time - add all your surfaces into the calculator, and check at all frequencies listed in the calculator to see what the RT is - if it's not fairly uniform, you need to re-think your acoustic treatment plan BEFORE it's built - that should at least get you CLOSE to a usable sound field. CR's should usually be between .25 seconds and .5 seconds, live rooms usually longer - it's uneven reverb times that make a room sound "off", so this is important.
The "free advertisement" is great, but I was kinda hoping you'd do that AFTER all the walls are done...
Stapling the insulation on the hangers will work, as long as the staples are long enough to get a good bite - some people tape it, glue it, etc - whatever keeps it there.
Be sure and keep asking questions til you're sure on all this - doing things over, other than sex, pizza, beer and your favorite guitar licks, just plain SUCKS... Steve
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sixtiksix
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Hey Steve,
Speaking of advertising, marketing is as important as a good room if you want to eat that is. And I have no clue about it. That should be another forum where successful studio owners give away all their secrets to idiots like myself. And then leave the biz because we undercut them...(joking)
Yes, the room is symmetrical within one centimeter, oops. But the wall on the other side will be double leaf sheetrock (no bricks). But the primary question now is should I put another sheetrock wall in front of the hangers in the back? I am leaning toward this for 100% isolation and then bass traps at an angle with flat wooden boards (hemholtz) and some RPG Skylines in the middle...or other diffusors. The bass freqs will travel through the sheet rock right? And absorbent and panel traps as you cited on the ceiling and walls as in the SAE manual. I have Adam S-3A monitors with the Sub 1 and plan to crank the hell out of them.
Reverb Calculator, hmm well the thing is I want to contstruct something similar to what I have been seeing in the million dollar facilities on this site. And my walls and ceilings will be angled and covered with treatment. But I will definitely play with it tonight when my friends leave....er...the calculator...lol..
What a mess...to everyone in the world reading this, Steve is absolutely right: you cannot plan enough. The other side is, if I don't finish the studio I will not have customers. No customers = no rent = pissed off landlord = homeless hippie = really great sound field playing bongos back home in America in front of Wallmart...
lemme nough
TIK
Speaking of advertising, marketing is as important as a good room if you want to eat that is. And I have no clue about it. That should be another forum where successful studio owners give away all their secrets to idiots like myself. And then leave the biz because we undercut them...(joking)
Yes, the room is symmetrical within one centimeter, oops. But the wall on the other side will be double leaf sheetrock (no bricks). But the primary question now is should I put another sheetrock wall in front of the hangers in the back? I am leaning toward this for 100% isolation and then bass traps at an angle with flat wooden boards (hemholtz) and some RPG Skylines in the middle...or other diffusors. The bass freqs will travel through the sheet rock right? And absorbent and panel traps as you cited on the ceiling and walls as in the SAE manual. I have Adam S-3A monitors with the Sub 1 and plan to crank the hell out of them.
Reverb Calculator, hmm well the thing is I want to contstruct something similar to what I have been seeing in the million dollar facilities on this site. And my walls and ceilings will be angled and covered with treatment. But I will definitely play with it tonight when my friends leave....er...the calculator...lol..
What a mess...to everyone in the world reading this, Steve is absolutely right: you cannot plan enough. The other side is, if I don't finish the studio I will not have customers. No customers = no rent = pissed off landlord = homeless hippie = really great sound field playing bongos back home in America in front of Wallmart...
lemme nough
TIK
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knightfly
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For rear walls, unless they're further than about 12 feet from your head, you should stay away from smooth reflective walls - diffusion is also not a good idea for rear walls, although slat absorbers that are splayed away from reflecting back to the mix position are OK. For absorbers, one way Phillip Newell and Tom Hidley go is with a "graduated impedance" trap - that's my term for it, basically your entrance to the trap should be open weave cloth, then heavier cloth, then rigid fiberglass, then hangers, etc - they use several more layers than that, but your budget wouldn't stand that. The traps John uses for rear CR walls are likely very similar and simpler to build.
I've still to get some sleep at 5:30, maybe you can look at some of the studios being built for ideas - click on the logo at upper right, choose Studios Under Construction, and check out some of the pix. I'll be out of it for probably 24 hours, but will check back when I can.
Meantime, a (sorta) scale drawing of your room would help in discussion - if you get a chance... Steve
I've still to get some sleep at 5:30, maybe you can look at some of the studios being built for ideas - click on the logo at upper right, choose Studios Under Construction, and check out some of the pix. I'll be out of it for probably 24 hours, but will check back when I can.
Meantime, a (sorta) scale drawing of your room would help in discussion - if you get a chance... Steve
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sixtiksix
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Yes I am looking to splay the back walls with the slats spaced unevenly with cloth backing and more hangers just like in some of the studios on the page. I took my plan right off of the SAE site. THe back wall now being brick>fiberglass>sheetrock>fiberglass>hangers>fiberglass>sheetrock. This is just the way it worked out because of poor planning on my part but that's rock and roll. Under the hangers I am thinking about laying some fiberglass on the floor then strips of plywood and more glass. The inner back wall of sheetrock will be totally covered by the bass traps and whatever that is in the middle....
Question Uno: What the heck is that triangle sticking out between the bass traps on the back wall?
Question Zwei: What about the bass traps up front? I am not planning to soffit mount my Adam S-3A's and still no idea where to place the sub-woofer...
Thank you
TIK
Question Uno: What the heck is that triangle sticking out between the bass traps on the back wall?
Question Zwei: What about the bass traps up front? I am not planning to soffit mount my Adam S-3A's and still no idea where to place the sub-woofer...
Thank you
TIK