Nashville Studio Build (need design help first!!!)

[Shybird]

Hey everybody!! I've been reading the forum for several months now...what an amazing source of information! Thank you John and everyone else who contributes their expertise. It has helped me learn so much and I'm STILL READING!!

Anyways, I think it's finally time for me to start my first thread regarding my own studio build here in Nashville. I will eventually start a "Build Journal" in the construction thread but I first want to finalize my studio plans and ideally have an exact Sketchup model of what the studio is going to be (down to the air ducts, cable paths, wall materials, slat resonators, etc.). The reason being that I am going to self-contract the build with the help of some local home builders and handymen (I will be working alongside them making sure the isolation aspects are done correctly while they insure that nothing will collapse!) Soooo I have a lot to incorporate into my design to make sure I know what it is going to take before I begin paying for their labor.

Alright...so here's the specifications of what I will be doing with this studio as well as an attached Sketchup file of the existing structure (yes I do already have a starting point ) as well as some pics and a couple proposed floor plans that incorporate some of my needs.

Studio Uses/Questions

1.) Lots of rehearsing (so I need one space large enough for a band to have a comfortable practice, and it needs to be isolated well...however considering my neighbors have not complained about late night rehearsals from the single walled home on the property, I think a good double wall construction should cover my needs concerning TL...plus the studio is further from the neighbors than the home)

2.) Mix room (will be doing a lot of mixing so I'm going for the soffit mounts since I've read so much about how they eliminate so many problems compared to speakers floating in the room...might as well do it right!)

3.) 2-3 iso booths (this is where there is some flexibility that I would love input on...I won't be tracking a live band extremely often, however it is something that I would like to do in the future. I am just not sure if I need a drum booth since I typically like roomier drum sounds...however I do intend on buying a piano down the line so it could always double as an acoustic piano booth. I am working with a fairly small amount of square footage so I'm just not sure if chopping up the space is a good idea in regards to comfort while in the studio.)

4.) bathroom and storage room (there is already a toilet out there and as you will see in the floor plans, I am thinking of walling it off so I can still use that room for an iso if need be as well as a storage/machine room.)

5.) As you look at the sketchup file, notice the current ceiling height where the crossbeams are (about 8'4"). Also notice how much space is left above these crossbeams. To me, it seems like it would be wise to try to gain a little more height by taking up the supports, especially for the live room and larger booth (if I end up having one). Does raising this height seem like a good idea if it can fit the budget?


Some other things to take into consideration...

I am 21 years old and I'm about to graduate (this May) from Belmont University with a Bachelor's of Music in Commercial Guitar/Songwriting . I am currently interning at a local professional studio called Station West. My first love is writing music and performing, however, I've also been an audio geek along the way and have always recorded my own projects as well as other bands I believe in artistically...PM me if you'd like links to my recorded material (don't wanna spam the forum since I'm a newbie here ). I acquired my Audio Engineering Certificate through Long Island Studios (Lexington School for Recording Arts) in a year long program during high school. Sorry for all the hooplah, just want you all know that I'm trying my best to make this build as professional as possible!

BUDGET (thanks to my unbelievably supportive parents and their belief in my abilities)

~ $20k-$30k ideally (we will be doing some of the labor ourselves...just not the framing, drywall, HVAC, or electrical unless somehow I learn to do some of these things with the help of friends and this forum. I have soldered audio cables, so I could do the wall plates if I need to. We've laid hardwoods before so my Dad and I can do that. Also, insulation and sealing we can do and maybe some of the more specific framing needs.)

Here are the current designs...and like I said I need help with the layout first (things like room mode calculations I am not very comfortable with...do I need to be doing this to figure out how many/what type of slat resonators I need?)

I HOPE I HAVE DONE THIS RIGHT! And I just want to go ahead and say thank you to anyone and everyone who decides to help me on this long and tedious journey! I am very excited to get this going.

Cheers!
Trevor

Sketchup File of Existing Structure

Additional Pictures Folder

[Shybird]

Ok so I'm a little bummed that I've had no replies yet ...however I understand that it takes time...I'm just anxious. Anyways, I've been continuing my research and have a few more questions to resolve.

As recommended by many people on the forum, I've been reading the Rod Gervais book cover to cover. I'm about halfway through now and have become more concerned with the actual dimensions of my rooms . So, here are some more detailed questions that I have...

1. If I am using angled walls, how do I go about calculating the room modes? (he only goes into rectangular theories) Also, how important are these calculations when using angled walls? (Do angled walls decrease mode issues to the point that it is less necessary to calculate the modes?)

2. My control room at this point (after double drywall) is around 8'2" x 10'8" x 18'1" (HWL)...I ran a room mode calculation and in order to pass this test, 1.1w / h < l / h < ((4.5w / h) - 4), the ceiling height has to be lowered...however I can't figure out the importance of this particular test. It passed the other two. I used the Bob Golds Room Modes calculator. The graph curve looks pretty decent compared to some other dimensions I entered.

3. Since my flooring is a single concrete slab, I am trying to figure out if I need any special construction to isolate the floors of each room. Floating floors are not an option as I have heard too many recommendations to steer clear of this technique. Would something like mass loaded vinyl or Auralex's Sheetblok help isolate sound transmissions through the floor if each room were constructed on an individual sheet? (would this ruin the ability to lay down hardwood floors?)

4. Should I be worried with the placement of the window between the control room and live room? Where it's at now, it does go up into the mixing position...will this produce too many unwanted reflections on the left side to the point the stereo image might be compromised? I could deal with a smaller window set further back if it would help with the listening position.

Just one other update to share...I talked to my builders and they said we would be able to raise the height of the live room up to 12 feet!! Very excited about that. Should allow for a much better acoustic space.

Thanks to whoever decides to help me out!
Trevor

[Soundman2020]

Hi Tevor, and Welcome!

I had your post tagged to reply to, but it's been kinda hectic, and somehow I didn't notice that I hadn't...

Well, better late than never, I guess!

OK, so to summarize:
- You are going to be loud (full band rehearsal, with drums), but you don't know how loud.
- You need to be quiet, but you don't know how quiet.
(Conclusion: you probably need to get a sound level meter and do some tests!!!)
- You'll be rehearsing, tracking and mixing, both for yourself and for others.
- You have an existing structure to work with, which limits your layout a bit.
- You didn't mention anything about the existing structure: how is it built? From the photos, it doesn't look very substantial, in terms of mass. How far are you prepared to go in "modifying" that structure?
- You have around 800 ft2 to work with, and a budget of around 30 k, meaning around US$ 35 per square foot..... Mmmmmmm....
- Your first Big Problem is the layout.


So let's start with the layout: any chance you could rotate your control room 90° anticlockwise, so that it runs up the right hand side of your drawing? I think that would give you better visibility into all the rooms: You could keep the drum booth straight ahead, and fit the vocal booth in between the CR and the storage area. I think it would be better use of space.

1. If I am using angled walls, how do I go about calculating the room modes? (he only goes into rectangular theories)

With great difficulty! That's why he only goes into rectangular rooms. As soon as you angle one or more walls, you can no longer use simple modal calculators, as they are no longer valid. But what you CAN do, is to get a very rough idea of how the room will behave by averaging out the splayed walls, and using the average for your calculations. It won't be accurate, of course, but it will be ball-park, and ball-park is all you really need anyway. If your walls are only mildly splayed, then the results will be close to reality, but if they are wildly splayed, not so much! The only real way to calculate non-rectangular rooms accurately, is with FEM/FEA software, and an expert running it.

Also, how important are these calculations when using angled walls?

Still important, and the modes will still be there: jut harder to calculate.

(Do angled walls decrease mode issues to the point that it is less necessary to calculate the modes?)

All rooms have modes, regardless of shape. A mode, in simple terms, is just a path around the room that a sound wave can take and get back to the exact same starting point, in phase with itself. So no matter how you angle the walls, the modes will still be there: they will just be at different frequencies now, and will peak in different locations in the room.

That said, don't go crazy over modes and ratios! You don't need to. Just stay away from bad ratios (where the dimensions are multiples of each other), and get close to one of the good ones. Done! All that a "good" ratio does for you is to spread the modes across the spectrum more evenly, such that they are not piled up on top of each other, or clumped together around certain areas of the spectrum, with big gaps in between. A perfectly even spread is impossible to achieve, there are no magical or "golden" ratios (despite what you read on some web sites!), and the best you can do is just get away from really bad spreads. So don't go tearing your hair out about trying to nail Sepmeyer's best ratio, or Louden's, or Bolt's, or anyone else's.

I ran a room mode calculation and in order to pass this test, 1.1w / h < l / h < ((4.5w / h) - 4), the ceiling height has to be lowered...however I can't figure out the importance of this particular test. It passed the other two. ... The graph curve looks pretty decent compared to some other dimensions I entered.

Then you are probably fine. If the Bonello curve is smooth and exponential, and the modes look to be well spread out, then don't sweat it too much. I wouldn't lower your ceiling. On the other hand, if you cut the length down to 14' 9", things change a little...

3. Since my flooring is a single concrete slab, I am trying to figure out if I need any special construction to isolate the floors of each room.

Nope! Not unless you need really high levels of isolation. But you didn't say how much isolation you need...

Most likely you'll be fine. It looks like your slab is thick and directly on grade, so you have plenty of mass and plenty of damping. You're probably fine like that.

Would something like mass loaded vinyl or Auralex's Sheetblok help isolate sound transmissions through the floor if each room were constructed on an individual sheet? (would this ruin the ability to lay down hardwood floors?)

Just lay your finish floor as normal, directly on the concrete, or with whatever underlay is normally used. You don't need anything special/exotic/expensive/magical/involving-the-squeezing-of-snakes....

4. Should I be worried with the placement of the window between the control room and live room?

Yep! You should be placing your window(s) to give you the best possible visibility between rooms, while also angling them to keep first reflections away from the mix position. Are you good at juggling?

will this produce too many unwanted reflections on the left side to the point the stereo image might be compromised? I could deal with a smaller window set further back if it would help with the listening position.

The answer is ray-tracing: Follow imaginary "rays" shot out of each speaker, ans see where they bounce. If they get to your head before hitting the back wall, then you have a problem. Shoot out lots of rays at many different angles from the speaker, and trace them all.

I talked to my builders and they said we would be able to raise the height of the live room up to 12 feet!!

How are they going to do that? Replace the trusses with something else? take the roof of and raise the walls? It would be interesting to see what they have in mind.

- Stuart -

[Shybird]

Hi Stuart, thank you so much for the reply! That was extremely helpful. Here are my responses:

- I'm gonna buy a sound level meter ASAP and run some tests inside and outside during a full band rehearsal...been so busy with my last semester that we've not been able to rehearse on a regular basis. That's gonna change soon!

- Yes, the existing structure will definitely need to be beefed up a bit. I forgot to address this issue in my original post. I was going through my options regarding this and I guess it mostly depends on the results I find out with the sound level meter. Here is one possible construction choice that I'd gone through in my head:

1. Replace any of the existing T1-11 plywood that is damaged.
2. Add a layer of "mass loaded vinyl" to the outside of the T1-11 (need input here, is this a good idea? I figure I can't use drywall on the outer shell.)
3. Finish with weather wrap and hardy plank siding (need to figure out the STC of different types of hardy plank)

So let's start with the layout: any chance you could rotate your control room 90° anticlockwise, so that it runs up the right hand side of your drawing?

I like the idea of changing the layout as I have been somewhat troubled by the location of the control room. However, I'm going to have to figure out what we can and can't do based on the structure that is already there. I'm going to set up a meeting with the builders in a week or two to go through some possible designs with them and figure out what they will be able to do without completely extravagant costs. Give me till tomorrow afternoon and I'll have a new layout designed more along the lines of what I think you are saying. The only things I can see that might cause issues with this are the cement footers that are already in place (you can see them in the sketchup file) as well as the wall (which is definitely load bearing) that would need to be demolished in order to change the position of the control room.

Then you are probably fine. If the Bonello curve is smooth and exponential, and the modes look to be well spread out, then don't sweat it too much. I wouldn't lower your ceiling. On the other hand, if you cut the length down to 14' 9", things change a little...

- Thank you for the answers regarding mode issues! I now have a better understanding of how to tackle the splayed wall dilemma and will be working on some better dimensions for the rooms... You're right about the 14'9" length, that passes all three tests plus has an even better Bonello curve. Unfortunately that seems like it would be a very small control room...what do you think? If I end up having to keep the control room in that position, would it be better to chop it down for the improved mode response, or keep the extra space for seating and whatnot?

How are they going to do that? Replace the trusses with something else? take the roof of and raise the walls? It would be interesting to see what they have in mind.

- Since I am not experienced with this myself, I have no idea how they will do this. It is something I will make sure to clear up when I meet with them in the next week or two. I really hope we can fit this in the budget (which still has a little bit of wiggle room) because it would make for a much more comfortable and professional space.

As far as the layout is concerned, I realize it is not ideal, however, do you have any other suggestions regarding the layout with the control room staying where it is? Are there better ways of splitting up the big room? I'm gonna keep playing with it and see what I can come up with. At one point, I split the big room into the control room and live room and placed the iso's where the control room is currently. However this added up to more wall construction as well as less square footage on the live room and control room.

Anyways, thank you for the great input Stuart!

Trevor

[Soundman2020]

1. Replace any of the existing T1-11 plywood that is damaged.
2. Add a layer of "mass loaded vinyl" to the outside of the T1-11 (need input here, is this a good idea? I figure I can't use drywall on the outer shell.)
3. Finish with weather wrap and hardy plank siding (need to figure out the STC of different types of hardy plank)

1 and 3 are fine, but 2 is "questionable". Think of it this way: Mass is mass, and sound waves don't care how much you paid for it: they can't read the price tag, and really don't give a damn anyway - they just react to the mass in front of them. So buy the cheapest mass that will do the job. MLV is mass, for sure, but it is rather expensive mass! compare the price, kilogram against kilogram, versus other common building materials, and you might be a little shocked. For much less money, and much more effect, just put on another layer of plywood! I'm not sure what "T1-11" is, but as long as it is water resistant and very think (18mm, hopefully, or at least 15mm) then that will do the trick.

Multiple layers of mass are your new best friends.

I like the idea of changing the layout as I have been somewhat troubled by the location of the control room. However, I'm going to have to figure out what we can and can't do based on the structure that is already there.

If you are prepared to do it, and you are going to be doing some major changes to the existing structure anyway, then there shouldn't be a problem: There are ways of supporting the span of roof that would be above the control room, if you turned it sideways.

as well as the wall (which is definitely load bearing) that would need to be demolished in order to change the position of the control room.

Not necessarily demolished completely: just modified to support the roof suitably.

You're right about the 14'9" length, that passes all three tests plus has an even better Bonello curve. Unfortunately that seems like it would be a very small control room...what do you think?

How big do you need it to be? That should be long enough to get decent sound. It's just a fraction short of the recommended volume for critical listening rooms, but good rooms have been built in smaller spaces.

If I end up having to keep the control room in that position, would it be better to chop it down for the improved mode response, or keep the extra space for seating and whatnot?

Hard to say: It all depends on what your priorities are. Do you need to fit lots of people in there regularly, or do you need to have the best possible acoustics all the time? If your priority is "lots of people", then leave the room long. If it is "best possible acoustics", then cut it a bit shorter.

however, do you have any other suggestions regarding the layout with the control room staying where it is? Are there better ways of splitting up the big room?

There are probably several ways you could fit things in better. For example, have you considered a corner control room? (five-sided, built diagonally across one corner). Or maybe centering the control room with deeply splayed walls and putting other rooms on each side? Lots of ways of skinning a cat!

- Stuart -

[Shybird]

Ok everybody I'm back! I am now officially a college graduate and no longer have those pressures on me. I gotta say it feels amazing to have my free time now void of homework. Anyways, it's time to hit the ground running with this studio build! I have some updates regarding my vision for the space:

- I no longer want to bother with building so many isolation booths.
- I have been doing a lot of thinking about my desires and needs as a musician/producer and have concluded that what I need most is a comfortable (spacious and aesthetically pleasing) room that sounds great to have full band rehearsals and sessions.
- My dream is to have the ultimate space for inducing creativity and collaboration.

I came to the conclusion that splitting up the space with booths was more of an attempt to make the studio "professionally viable" and competitive. It might be a selling point if I were trying to run sessions for money all the time and advertise the studio in the Nashville market, but that is not my goal. My long term focus is in my own development as an artist and composer where producing/engineering take up a much smaller portion of the pie. This being said I have come up with a completely new plan for the available floor space.

I talked to my builder a couple of days ago and he confirmed for me that these plans would be doable (structurally speaking). The final price obviously can't be computed until I finish with all the details, but the numbers he threw out were promising for the budget so I'm hopeful it will all work out. I just have to finalize the plans now and we can begin construction. I suspect this will still take some time as I have a lot of questions left to discover!

After deciding to break it down to just a control room and a live room, I merely took out the booths from the above drawings (my first post) and was left with a live room that had odd dimensions and a horrible Bonello curve. The control room was similarly odd and like Stuart had recommended, I could get better acoustics by shortening it by a few feet. So I toyed around a bit and ended up with the design below. This gives the control room the desirable ratio of 1-1.4-1.9 with 8'4" ceilings and the live room a ratio of approximately 1-1.5-2.2 (Louden's 4th best) with 12' ceilings. The live room was calculated by averaging the width since it varies from 16'10" to 18'3". The Bonello curves aren't perfect but they are smooth overall and show a huge improvement in comparison to the other layout.

So at this point these are the questions I have:

1. Does anyone see any major flaw in having a small control room paired with a huge live room with only one iso booth? (according to Rod Gervais, the live room will classify as a "large" room since it is over 5,000cu.ft. Based on the reading this means the room will sound much better and will not only be easier to treat the acoustical "problems" but those "problems" will be less serious in comparison to a smaller room ...this is a huge reason why I am liking the idea of constructing a large space.)

2. Are there some better ways of laying out the doors in between the rooms? I've had some trouble with this and wanted input. (in the drawing I have kept the iso booth and control room seperate so it would be easier to provide seating in the rear of the control room. A door in the rear between the two would prevent some seating space.)

3. Regarding the ceiling structure, would it be better to get some angles going if it is possible within the budget? Or is a flat 12' ceiling going to work just fine as a starting point and then just add treatments within that?

4. Any other problems I am not foreseeing with this layout? (I realize visibility from the control room is not ideal, but I found that I lost too much space with a corner design...so besides that?) Is it a problem that the glass takes up nearly the entire right wall (from an acoustics standpoint)?

I am continuing to think of a better way to do the control room as it feels small to me, but I am not too worried about it because most of my time will not be spent mixing. <<<<Anybody have experience with small control rooms?? Input would be appreciated on this matter.

Hope this post was clear for everybody...I will be visiting this forum daily now that I am free so I will be posting much more than I have been...hope it doesn't get too overwhelming. Thanks again in advance for any help.

Onward!!!
Trevor

[Soundman2020]

Congratulations on the graduation!

On the layout, the first thing I noticed is: sight lines! You don't have any. There's no visibility at all form the CR to the LR. With a nice big LR like that, I'd seriously consider rotating the CR to get a view of the LR. Put a window in the front wall (between the soffits) or on one of the side walls. It would be a shame to have a great LR but never be able to see what's going on in there! Sure, you could put CCTV cameras and screens in, but it's not quite the same.

I don't think your CR is all that small: you are already over 1400 cubic feet volume, which is in the ball park for "critical listening rooms", according to ITU, EBU and others.

But there's another thing that caught my eye: your MSM isolation around the CR is not complete. The front wall and left wall appear to be the outer wall of the building. That needs to be fixed.

Not sure if I mentioned this before, but I'm thinking that a diagonal corner layout might work very well for your CR.. It would maximize volume in both rooms, and give you some great sight lines.

- Stuart -

[Shybird]

Hey Stuart thanks for such a quick reply! Looks like you're my only hope at this point lol.

Anyways, I do have some sight between the rooms right? With the window being to the right of the mix position (it's hard to see in the drawing, I've attached a slightly better rendering) ... the engineer would have to turn his head I realize, is that what you meant about having no sight lines?

Let me mess around with a corner CR design. I'm not quite seeing it when I attempt to draw it in. You think the top left corner would be best?

That's great to know about the CR cubic feet. I didn't realize that was a satisfactory size.

Also I left the walls single frame because I won't need the extra isolation between the control room and outside the building. I will only need that extra isolation between the rooms themselves as well as between the live room and outside. Is this a problem for the acoustics within the CR? If so I can understand why, I just hadn't thought about that. I was doing this to save space, time (paying workers), and materials, and therefore money.

I ran some tests today (full band) with the RadioShack SPL meter and I know I will be safe with a double wall around the live room considering the reduction in dB level that just my single walled home provides. I need to do further tests and more math to figure out exactly 'what type' and 'how much' mass I need, but I think staying pretty basic is gonna do the trick with the double wall.

Out for now
Trevor

[Soundman2020]

OK, I hadn't seen the window there. That does give you some view, but you said...

the engineer would have to turn his head I realize, is that what you meant about having no sight lines?

Yup! I mean, it will work like that, but the poor fellow might end up with a sore neck after a while! OK, it's probably not that much of a big deal, and many studios do only have side windows due to limitations with the building that they have to fit into, but seeing that you are lucky enough to have plenty of space, it seems a shame to not do it the best way possible.

You think the top left corner would be best?

Probably, but play around with all options and see what works best. As you move things around, you might come up with other ideas. That's one of the reasons why design takes so much time: there are so many options, and playing around with them to find the best one can't be done in five minutes!

On very smart expert here has a very true saying as his signature: "Building a studio is 90° design, 10° construction".

Also I left the walls single frame because I won't need the extra isolation between the control room and outside the building.

Why not? Nothing noisy ever happens in your area? No rain, wind, or thunder? No planes or helicopters flying overhead? No animals or people nearby? No cars arriving or leaving? No radios, lawnmowers, tractors, or anything else? I don't know about you, but I find it distracting to try to track and mix with sounds around me that aren't part of the mix!

I also noticed that you have the same problem with your isolation booth: that isn't isolated either (despite the name! ) It's just a single leaf wall to the outside, and thus is also directly coupled to the CR. There won't be any "isolation" at all between the CR and iso booth like that. So tracking vocals or soft acoustic instruments in there would be a problem.

There's two more issue I noticed: Don't do your doors like that! The smash into each other!! You cannot get into the iso booth at all if the CR door is open! Nice way to trap your talent in the iso booth! That might not seem like a big issue, but it absolutely is. You'll deep regret that once you start using the studio, if your doors obstruct each other.

Also, you seem to have a bathroom INSIDE the iso booth? That doesn't sound like a good idea to me at all.

I ran some tests today (full band) with the RadioShack SPL meter

Great! so post the numbers already! Those are rather important in the design process.

but I think staying pretty basic is gonna do the trick with the double wall.

What is the goal for your isolation? Are you just trying to not disturb the neighbors, or are you trying to create a good studio all around, where you can track, mix and master well?

- Stuart -

[Shybird]

Alright so here are the numbers from the SPL test...this was done with drums, bass, and electric guitar going full blast (the meter has a max and average function so I wrote down both for most of the test):

Inside jam room (max/average): ~115dB/~106dB
Outside front door (has single pane glass and an old keyhole that is still see through! lol): 85/76
Outside front window (single pane glass plus storm window): 75/67
Next to closest neighbor's wall: 70 max

So based on these readings, the windows with the added storm window allow for a wall that gives a reduction of about 40dB and then the added distance to the neighbors wall (about 15ft) gives an additional 5dB of reduction for a total of -45dB. Assuming the neighbor's wall is similar to my own wall structure, there would be an additional 40dB reduction by the time it reached their actual living space. This means the 115dB within the jam room is reduced to 30dB once inside their walls. Obviously I want to make this number zero but I am pretty confident this is doable. Since the studio is further away from the neighbor than my home (a good 35ft or so, I need to measure to be exact) and since the studio will have double walls, I think it is safe to say they could be having a tea party while we are rocking out. What do you guys think? Does this seem reasonable given the studio is properly built?

Ok now on to a couple other things. Stuart, in regards to the bathroom being in the iso booth, this is because the toilet and sink location are fixed. Unfortunately I am having to work around this. I realize there are some other designs that make this better, but then I sacrifice the size of the live room which is best suited on the right side of the layout (I'm trying to maintain 5000 cubic feet in the live room). Also the door/load-in needs to be on the bottom right because this is where I can have cars pull up outside (there is no such space around the building to do this on any other side). So I figure loading into the live room makes more sense than having to cart things through a control room all the time (hence the reason why the control room is in the top left). Is that a logical assumption?

I have posted a new layout below but I have some questions regarding RFZ. Is 15º enough of an angle on the control room walls to allow for a proper RFZ? And is it vital that the ceiling be 15º as well or will an angled cloud provide the same function? (Notice where it shows double sided doors there will actually be single reinforced "superdoors" instead...the drawing program just doesn't let me do that. Also notice the left wall has been take straight down in order to accommodate a decent booth...this would require some additional concrete.)

Also, how important is it that the rear of the control room be symmetrical? Can slight asymmetry be fixed with proper acoustical treatment?

In regards to my monitors, I am planning on using my Event ASP8's in a soffit mount configuration...I can't find any recommended distance in the user manual so does anybody have any suggestions in how I should set them up? Is there an ideal distance for 8" speakers? I would assume its really up to me as long as I have the correct equilateral triangle that allows for a good mix position (approximately 38% from front wall) within the given room dimensions...is my thinking correct here?

Let me know what you think of the new design! I'm trying to provide better sight lines and angled walls to help with acoustics and use of space.

Thanks again!!
Trevor

[Soundman2020]

I think you are being a bit unrealistic with your sound level estimations!

...by the time it reached their actual living space.

I think you'll find that most noise regulations specify measurement at your property line, not the other guy's living room.

That's where the cops or municipal inspectors will measure, if they get a complaint. Not in someone else's kitchen or bathroom: it will be measured at your property line. Your responsibility is what leaves your property, not what arrives at some other guy's refrigerator. It is not his responsibility to have sound-proof walls: it is YOUR responsibility.

Next to closest neighbor's wall: 70 max

If I were getting a level of 70 dB at my front wall from my neighbor, you can bet I'd have the cops over there in five minutes! That's darn loud. That would be downright annoying during the day, and totally unacceptable at night.

Assuming the neighbor's wall is similar to my own wall structure, there would be an additional 40dB reduction by the time it reached their actual living space.

His wall is irrelevant: What if he likes to leave his doors and windows open all the time? What if he likes to sit out in his garden without being disturbed by your noise?

You CANNOT take into account anyone else's construction. What matters is the loudness of the sound as it pass over YOUR property line.

...

So assuming the property line is about half way between your house and theirs, that puts it at about 8 feet from your wall. So you need a total reduction of 115-40 dB = 75 dB (assuming your local noise regulation specifies a limit of 40 dB). You might get 3 dB at 8 feet, so call it 72 dB. That's what your wall needs to give you: 72 dB of isolation.

So that places your isolation goal at 72 dB.

Obviously I want to make this number zero

Actually, you can't do that, nor do you need to. A level of zero decibels means that the sound is just audible in total silence. It represents a pressure difference of 0.0022 pascals, which is the theoretical threshold of human hearing. So it is possible to have sounds that quieter than that, and as far as I know the quietest room in the world was recently measured at -9 dB (yes, negative 9 decibels, or about half as loud as the quietest sound anyone could possibly hear). But in reality, that doesn't occur in nature, nor in residential communities. The ambient level will be substantially greater than that, probably around 30-something at the quietest time of night. It's normally hard to distinguish sounds that are more than 10 dB below ambient, so if you really wanted to get things "silent", you'd only need to get it down to 20 dB.

What do you guys think? Does this seem reasonable given the studio is properly built?

I think you CAN get 70 dB of isolation, if you do it right, and I also think that 40 dB of isolation is totally insufficient, if you want to keep the cops away!

Stuart, in regards to the bathroom being in the iso booth, this is because the toilet and sink location are fixed. ... Also the door/load-in needs to be on the bottom right

OK, that makes sense: so those are fixed. Main entrance at bottom right, bathroom at bottom left.

Is that a logical assumption?

Yup! You don't want to have to cart heavy equipment and instruments around the back of the building, and then have to walk through other rooms to get to the LR. So yes, it makes perfect sense to keep your main entrance door close to the parking area. Which means it makes most sense to have the entrance to the LR at the bottom right.

But you could still rotate your CR 90° right, and then put the iso booth in front of it, or on the other side if you do a corner CR. That would not reduce the size of the LR, and might even improve the layout.

I have posted a new layout below

I see that you have added the missing wall for the CR, but you are still missing one wall between the iso booth and the bathroom. There's only one leaf there, which means that the bathroom is actually located in the air cavity between the CR walls! (acoustically speaking)And also the cavity between the LR walls. and also the cavity between the iso booth walls.

Is 15º enough of an angle on the control room walls to allow for a proper RFZ?

It might be. Or it might not be. The only way to find out for sure is to ray-trace. It's a pain, but there's no other way.

and is it vital that the ceiling be 15º as well or will an angled cloud provide the same function?

A cloud will suffice, if you have no choice, provided that the cloud is hard-backed and also angled steeply enough. But a hard backed cloud angled steeply enough is pretty much the same as just angling the front of the ceiling...

Also, how important is it that the rear of the control room be symmetrical? Can slight asymmetry be fixed with proper acoustical treatment?

Rear symmetry isn't critical, unless you are doing surround sound (5.1, etc.). So from that point of view, the slight "kink" in the rear would not make much difference. You could do that.

However, I don't understand the reason for moving the door to that location: Why not just put it in the middle of the CR side wall? If sight lines is your concern, then put glass in the door and windows on either side. The location of that door right now is right where your rear bass traps should be in the control room. That is prime real estate, the best possible location for bass traps. If the door is taking up that location, then where do you plan to put the bass traps?

Also, you do not need to splay the entire walls: you only need to splay enough to guarantee that the RFZ is complete. Usually, that would mean that you only need to splay the walls as far back as your head (once again, unless you are doing surround: that makes things a bit more complicated). That would allow you to have a greater angle at the front, and a much wider room at the back.

in a soffit mount configuration...I can't find any recommended distance in the user manual so does anybody have any suggestions in how I should set them up? Is there an ideal distance for 8" speakers?

It's not so much the size of the speakers that matters (although for very large cabs, it is important), but rather the geometry of the room. EBU recommendation is for the speakers to be on the circumference of a circle where your head is in the middle, and the radius is 2 to 4 meters (roughly 6.5' to 13'). In turn, your head should also be roughly 38% of the room depth (distance from front wall to rear wall), and both your head and the speakers should be 1.2 meters above the floor. When I say "your head" that actually refers to "your ears". And when I say "height of the speakers" that actually refers to the acoustic axis of the speaker, not the top, bottom or center of the speaker. The acoustic axis is an imaginary line that pokes straight out the front panel of the speaker, at the location from which the sound appears to emanate. It is always located on another imaginary line that joins the center of the woofer to the center of the tweeter, and is generally much closer to the tweeter. The exact location might be in your speaker manual. Some manufacturers are smart enough to publish that data.

The speakers should be angled such that the axes intersect a few inches behind your head

I would assume its really up to me as long as I have the correct equilateral triangle that allows for a good mix position (approximately 38% from front wall) within the given room dimensions...is my thinking correct here?

Welllll......, yes and no. It is "up to you" in the sens that you'll have to fiddle and nudge things around to make them all fit, but you'll find that you don't have a lot of options, once you take into account all of the above!

When you start trying to make all that work, you'll start to run into issues that will have you banging your head against the wall, since some requirements will be in direct conflict with others. So you have to compromise: you might need to angle the speakers more than 30° to make the geometry work, and that's fine. You might need to move away from the famous 38% location, and that's fine too. You might need to bring the speakers closer together or further apart, or move your head. It ain't easy to make all that work out! The best you can do is to find a location that is a good compromise on all of the above. But you won't have much freedom to chose the listening distance.

If you are interested in the math, here's the diagram from the EBU recommendation:

5.1-EBU-layout.jpg

(That's for 5.1, so just forget the center speaker and the two surrounds.)

where it shows double sided doors there will actually be single reinforced "superdoors" instead...

Are you SURE you want to do that? Superdoors are HEAVY, and EXPENSIVE to make. And they force you to compromise your isolation by tying together your leaves at the door frame. They have their place, but I think you'd find that a pair of back-to-back doors would be easier.

the drawing program just doesn't let me do that.

Try switching to SketchUp! It's 3D, not 2D, and allows you to any damn thing you like!

- Stuart -

[Shybird]

Hey Stuart, I'm sorry for the confusion on my analysis of the SPL test. I was meaning the same thing that you ended up saying, I just didn't tally the total. But I meant that my walls currently give 40dB reduction, plus about 5dB reduction in the distance, but I needed about 30dB more. So total I need 75dB (you ended up saying 72dB) of reduction and considering the added distance to the studio and double walls, I think this will be achievable. That's what I meant with my post. I see where it was confusing because I didn't conclude the paragraph with an actual total. Sorry about that!!!

By the way, nobody lives in the house next to my jam room yet...so at this point my other neighbors don't care because they say they can't hear me anyways. So nobody is getting 70dB at their walls! haha

That's good to know about the "superdoors." I thought they would be less expensive in the end and provide more isolation. So, based on what you said, I was exactly wrong. Go figure. lol

Also, you keep talking about rotating the control room 90º but when I try this I end up with less sight lines and an oddly shaped live room. Are either of the drawings below even close to what you are saying? (I know they are rough)

And with the bathroom, is it horrible that it resides within the cavity? I don't have to drywall the bathroom...I could just use some kind of cloth to stretch over the frames so not to mess up the MSM of the double wall. I know that sounds crazy...just trying to fit that darn thing in there!

Thanks again for your help...I feel like I know less and less the more I do this.

Trevor

[Soundman2020]

Also, you keep talking about rotating the control room 90º but when I try this I end up with less sight lines and an oddly shaped live room. Are either of the drawings below even close to what you are saying? (I know they are rough)

Not exactly! Yours show a 45! rotation. I was thinking more more like this...

90° rotation...

layout-4 angled CR-90°-hack-S02.jpg

OK, so that's just a very rough 5-minute "pixel-hack", but it shows you the concept I'm suggesting. The bathroom is no longer a problem, the volume of the LR does not change, and you have better sight lines. I would also modify the vocal booth to fit that corner better, of course: it looks ugly and impractical poking out like that. Maybe continue the same line as the side of the control room, or something like that. The booth can actually be a bit bigger now, if you want: maybe even big enough to use as a drum booth! (but sacrificing a few feet of the LR, of course.)

I'd also flatten out the rear half of the control room (make the walls parallel again, after the get past your head) to give you much more space in the LR.

lots of option!

Your second drawing shows roughly what a corner layout might work out like, but I'd make it a bit wider and not so deep, in order to not eat up so much of the LR. But now that I see it, I'm thinking that the corner CR option might not work out. But I do think the 90° option can be made to work. The LR will be a bit longer and a bit thinner, but the same total volume, which is what matters.

And with the bathroom, is it horrible that it resides within the cavity?

Yup, it sure is! Unless you don't mid the sounds of the toilet flushing getting into your vocals and instrument mics... not to mention other unpleasant sounds.!

If it is in the cavity, then it is not isolated. You'd be getting something like 20 dB or so of isolation: translation: clearly audible!

I don't have to drywall the bathroom...

I think you do! Just run a wall across to complete the isolation plan.


- Stuart -

[Shybird]

Thanks for taking the time to do all this Stuart, your help is GREATLY appreciated...

I had tinkered around with a layout similar to the one you provided but I felt that the live room was awkward because of the small space between the bathroom and control room. I've seen studios that fill a space like that with the back end of a grand piano but that wouldn't seem logical in this instance since that is where the bathroom and control room doors would have to be. So I feel like that space becomes somewhat "wasted." What would you recommend using that space for?

I do like the idea of a larger booth since I will most likely only have one. But I don't want to sacrifice the comfort of the live room's dimensions and overall space. This is getting so difficult! I feel like I'm back tracking! Ahhhhh

Okay enough of that lol. Here is a design similar to what you suggested...I changed the angle of the front CR wall to improve sight lines into the booth. Also made the booth bigger. I think it's big enough for drums. It would be a tight fit though. What do you think of this one? Getting closer, or no?

[Soundman2020]

Another thought: If you want more space over on the left, then flip the CR and iso booth "end over end" (mirror image) so the CR is on the right facing left, and the booth is above the bathroom...

You could also flatten out the rear half of your CR walls some more: Even make them parallel, if you want. Give you some more volume in the LR. And also straighten out that "kink" in the rear wall of the CR: it's wasting space. In other words, make the rear wall straight across, without the angle in the middle. The slight asymmetry at the back isn't going to be a big deal (and won't even be there, if your rear walls are parallel!)


- Stuart -