Modular Wall Design

[ktb1025]

Hello,

I've been lurking this forum for about a week or so, trying to glean the volumes of incredibly helpful information... Now my head hurts! Just sooo much to absorb. This is an amazingly thorough forum!

My first question is fairly simple I think. It has to do with modular wall design as opposed to traditional continuous framing methods. Assuming that the preferred method of "mass-space-mass" wall construction, and adequate caulking/sealing techniques are maintained, is there a disadvantage in building modular 4'x8' or 4'x10' wall sections, and attaching them together as needed?

I ask this because I'm signing a 3 year lease on a 3400 sq ft warehouse with 20' high ceilings. My plan is to build 4 rehearsal rooms, and a control room, each completely isolated from one another. I'd like to consider moving at the end of the lease term if my renewal option is too expensive. Alternatively, if the price is right I might take over the adjoining space (additional 1700 sf), which would require moving the rooms to maximize space efficiency. Either way, at 36 months I gotta move something.

I'm also not sure if the modular design would be impacted by building code requirements to the extent that a more "permanent" structure would be.

Any insight from anyone here would be greatly appreciated!

Kevin Burns

[gabe real]

i'm in the same situation, there has to be something we can do. I was going to build a temporary room about 10ft x 9ft. and 7ft high. for a control room, still tring to get all the details together.

[lowdbrent]

Hello,

I've been lurking this forum for about a week or so, trying to glean the volumes of incredibly helpful information... Now my head hurts! Just sooo much to absorb. This is an amazingly thorough forum!

My first question is fairly simple I think. It has to do with modular wall design as opposed to traditional continuous framing methods. Assuming that the preferred method of "mass-space-mass" wall construction, and adequate caulking/sealing techniques are maintained, is there a disadvantage in building modular 4'x8' or 4'x10' wall sections, and attaching them together as needed?

I ask this because I'm signing a 3 year lease on a 3400 sq ft warehouse with 20' high ceilings. My plan is to build 4 rehearsal rooms, and a control room, each completely isolated from one another. I'd like to consider moving at the end of the lease term if my renewal option is too expensive. Alternatively, if the price is right I might take over the adjoining space (additional 1700 sf), which would require moving the rooms to maximize space efficiency. Either way, at 36 months I gotta move something.

I'm also not sure if the modular design would be impacted by building code requirements to the extent that a more "permanent" structure would be.

Any insight from anyone here would be greatly appreciated!

Kevin Burns

There are companies like Wenger that make modular, mobile acoustic spaces, but they are going to cost just as much as a permanent facility. They do not weigh as much though, and that may be to your advantage structurally.

There are quite a few acoustic designers that work with Wenger. Wenger sends them the room, they custom fit it with acoustic treatment, install the racks, etc, and then break it down and ship it to you. Their installers bring it in, install it, and whammo your done in a day.

[ktb1025]

I began construction 3 weeks ago on a prototype of one of the inner rooms for my warehouse project. I chose the modular design scenario because it allowed me to build my wall sections easier than traditional stand up framing methods. Again, this design is for 4 seperate rehearsal rooms in one warehouse, each room self-contained. Outside these 4 rooms in the same warehouse will be a live stage and a control room. A total of 5 rooms, each completely isolated from one another in a 3400 sq ft / 24ft high square warehouse space. I'm almost completely finished with the prototype, except for some acoustical caulking of minor leaks. I'm somewhat impressed at the result, but I think there's much room for improvement. Maybe some of you here could critique my design and construction methods?


To begin with, my prototype consists of only the inner room. I plan on building the room within a room, having at least 8" between the walls. The plan here is mass - air - mass...

My prototype is 12'wide x 16'long x10'high, with one corner cut off to allow for a 48" entry (36" door). Construction is wood framing, with the 2x4 footers resting on a continuous strip of 3/8" neoprene. After the footers were laid, I rested my individual pre-made walls on top of them, with generous amounts of caulking in between. Ditto all around...

The walls are made of 3/4" MDF framed with 16" centers. I carefully rested 3" Roxul rock wool between the studs and covered each wall first with a very light flannel material to keep the rock wool in place, and then a sheet of 1/4" pegboard. So from inside the room you have pegboard, flannel, rock wool, MDF. Then I plan on 8" of space, and then the second mass of wall. I'd like to do the same exact wall in reverse, because I'd like to treat the sound in the great room somewhat. Not sure yet if it will compromise the integrity though.

The ceiling is 2"x6"x12' joists, with MDF & 3" roxul, flannel, and pegboard, same as the walls.

The floor is concrete, so I started with those 3' square interlocking foam tiles, 3/8" plywood, Tri-Ply, then 3/4" plywood. All 1/4" from the walls and caulked.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++


As I said, I'm fairly pleased with the results, but I can't help but wonder if I've made some fundamental errors. As far as sound attenuation goes, I can crank my Behringer PA up almost all the way (800 watts) put on some old Emerson, Lake, & Palmer CD's, and read peaks of 56db at 25 feet away. I'm hoping I'll improve my results drastically when I build the 2nd set of walls/ceiling around this room. I have not done anything yet to treat the sound inside the room. I expect I'll tackle each room on an individual basis when I'm done overall.

[cadesignr]

I'll improve my results drastically when I build the 2nd set of walls/ceiling around this room.

Hmmm, I don't understand that one. The room already is IN another room right? Therefore it IS a room within a room. The next statement is what tells me that you are INCORRECT in your design approach.

A total of 5 rooms, each completely isolated from one another

o begin with, my prototype consists of only the inner room. I plan on building the room within a room, having at least 8" between the walls. The plan here is mass - air - mass...

What you are suggesting here, is a room inside a room inside a room !!!:shock:

This will give you QUADRUPLE LEAF ISOLATION. NOT GOOD. At least from my understanding of your description. What it sounds like is you are building an inner leaf, and then an outer leaf with an 8" airgap. All of which are within an existing outer warehouse shell. Correct. And each of 5 rooms are to be built this way, correct. IF so, NOT!!! Your inner shell is one leaf. Each adjacent room creates the second leaf on adjacent walls, with an airgap between. Your warehouse shell is the compleat outer leaf, adjacent to your rooms where there are parallel walls. The warehouse roof is the second leaf in relationship to the ceilings on each room. If I understand this correctly, from room to room, you would have 4 leafs. (MDF Airgap MDF) Airgap) (MDF Airgap MDF)..Please tell me if I'm reading this incorrectly.
fitZ

[ktb1025]

Hi FitZ, Thank you for your reply...

What it sounds like is you are building an inner leaf, and then an outer leaf with an 8" airgap.

Actually, from the inside of the prototype room is a layer of pegboard, followed by flannel, then rockwool packed framing on MDF. That's my inner leaf... The pegboard virtually allows all freqs except the mid-to-highs right through, so I didn't consider it as mass. ...Then 8" air space, followed by the second leaf of flannel & rockwool packed framing on MDF, then possibly 5/8" drywall.

All of which are within an existing outer warehouse shell.

That is correct. I'm not trying to attenuate the sound so much from my neighbors as I am from room to room. No structure is to come within 12" of a perimeter wall or 48" from each other, but I will need to isolate the rooms. Normally I would consider the warehouse shell the outer leaf, but that would then mean that each room would only be one leaf, hence reduced isolation within the warehouse. That's what I have now, is 56db of ambient noise.

Hopefully I'll find the sources of my leaks today and caulk them closed. Most of my leaks though came from around the door. I got most of them, but if I can squash them all, I should be in pretty good shape. Also, I think I'll need to blow in some fiber insulation between the rooms and warehouse walls. My prototype is located in the corner, and those little annoying leaks on the side and in the rear are travelling up the walls and bouncing off the ceiling of my otherwise empty untreated warehouse.

[knightfly]

Doesn't sound like you've made any glaring mistakes so far, other than the floor seems a bit underdone for air gap - my question is, do you consider this "portable" because you own a crane, or because you're buds with the entire NFL who will help you move it when it's time, or???

Or maybe it's just this old fart who considers ONE sheet of MDF too much to move without firing up my backhoe

Seriously though, how is this "portable" - meaning, where/how does it come apart for moving? Sorry if I missed that part, been a rough week... Steve

[ktb1025]

Hi Steve,

If I told you I screwed the entire thing together with 1 Makita "portable" drill, would you put me out of my misery and have me committed?

my question is, do you consider this "portable" because you own a crane, or because you're buds with the entire NFL who will help you move it when it's time, or???

Portable in the sense that I wisely chose members from all the local bands in South Florida to help, in return for discounted rehearsal time. Portable in the sense that if the landlord raises the rates through the roof in 3 years, I pick up and go... But just this once... I three years I'll be to freakin' tired to move anything.

Doesn't sound like you've made any glaring mistakes so far, other than the floor seems a bit underdone for air gap

The only air gap I have is between my headphones. Seriously, do you think it would improve attenuation if I raised the floor? I'm already using rubber matting 1/2" - 3/8" plywood - Tri-Ply - 3/4" plywood...

My only concerns at this time are:

Did I use too much 3/8" neoprene under the entire frame, only the corners seem squashed somewhat.

Prior to encasing this room inside the second wall, should I add more density? Or should that go on the outside wall?

Seriously though, how is this "portable" - meaning, where/how does it come apart for moving?

As I mentioned above, this thing actually screws together, then apart (hopefully) aside from the copious amounts of acoustical caulking of course.


As you can see from the picture below, I'm going to have to build 4 of these, plus a control room, plus the stage area. Insulating one room from the other is tough enough... Keeping the ambient noise down in the main area will be my toughest challenge.

[cadesignr]

No structure is to come within 12" of a perimeter wall or 48" from each other, but I will need to isolate the rooms.

Hello again. Well, I'm still a little confused. So no rehearsal room will be no closer than 48" to an adjacent rehearsal room, is that correct? If so, your plan doesn't show that at all. It doesn't even show both leafs, which are 8" appart Whcih in effect doesn't show your true square footage. Also it doesn't show double doors in the two leafs. That kind of stuff throws me off.
Also, Since you are building TWO leafs around each space,I guess you are planning on building TWO ceiling structures too, correcty? I know its none of my business, but are you getting permits for this ?If so, I hope this was NOT the plan that you submitted, as the inspectors would probably make you stop in your tracks. I know they would where I'm from. Since you possibly have a large occupancy load too, this looks like it would have to comply with Title 24 codes. I know it would in California. And if you DIDN"T, lord help you if you get caught. BIG FINES in projects this large, as Title 24 has to do with egress for the handicapped(don't tell me there will be no handicapped people there as the codes don't care, you still have to comply) as well as other things, such as bathrooms, door hardware, side clearance at doors, thresholds, floor height differences etc. Lots of things that we take for granted as a NON disabled person, become painfully obvious when required to comply. Like FIRE RATED WALLS, and fabrics, lever latchs, even possibly a FIRE SPRINKLING system. I know. Been there. Done that. AFTER THE FACT. EXPENSIVE. DOUBLE EXPENSIVE if you do it AFTER getting caught without a permit. Hope you got one.

fitZ

[knightfly]

Floors - yes, they will need to be floated (and well) to keep the noise down in the open area - do a search on EPDM or perhaps FLOATED, I've answered a few recent posts that should explain more.

Walls - mass, air, mass. Period. Anything else is wasting materials and money. More mass, good. More space between the masses, good. Filling between with insulation, also good. Hard contact between the two masses - BAAAD....

If you can enlarge and detail what you intend for a section of wall on your rehearsal areas, we can discuss that more.

All of what Rick said (Hey, Rick, ya ever gonna answer yer freakin' EMAIL ??!?)

BTW, when working on an isolation plan, you need to consider both local and global - by that, I mean that it takes m-a-m to isolate; so, isolating two rooms from one another within a larger area, you still have to do the m-a-m barrier between them - if this means that between one of those rooms and the outside world you end up with THREE leaves, then the only thing I know to do is BEEF UP that outermost leaf (more mass) to compensate for the LF performance lost through the 3-leaf effects - otherwise, your room-to-room iso will suffer. Not an ideal solution, but sometimes necessary... Steve