the weakest link, w pic

motown59 · Post by **motown59** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:04 am

OK, I've been busy with sealing off windows, yanking out wall mounted A/C units, and I've added and inch of siding to the outside wall. Things are getting quiet inside the tracking room and control room.

But, the traffic/leaf blower/barking dogs noise and such is coming in around the doors big-time. I've read for hours on doors, been to Home depot looking and formulating ideas. Unfortunately the door into the controll room is 125' from the residential street...and right in from the outside. The door is a sculpted wood design with a little leaded glass 8" panel at eye level. The sculpting makes the door only about 3/4" thick at it's thinnest. A lot of the noise is from the edges of the door. There is typical weatherstripping applied.
Questions:
1.I want to make the door at least as good, or close to my wall (2x4stud with 1" siding outside, R13 insdide the cavity and 5/8" drywall inside). Possible with a single door?
2. fiberglass or wood?
3. I read about the cleat going all the way around the frame with auto-type weatherstripping. Is this the only DIY? The tripping of clients slightly worrys me.
4. what about being able to lock up without boring a hole in for locksets?
5.It may be possible to build a second door vestibule(don't know if this is the correct term) but it may only be 2 or 3 feet out from the existing door. Good idea?
thanks!!

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 3:18 pm

1.I want to make the door at least as good, or close to my wall (2x4stud with 1" siding outside, R13 insdide the cavity and 5/8" drywall inside). Possible with a single door?

Sure; all you need is $5000, and a call to Overly Door - otherwise, not too likely - with near perfect seals, a standard full thickness 1-3/4" solid wood door will be lucky to have an STC rating of 32, with a natural resonance somewhere around 7-800 hZ -

2. fiberglass or wood?

Solid fiberglass (not insulation) would be denser than wood, so would have higher TL overall for a given thickness.

3. I read about the cleat going all the way around the frame with auto-type weatherstripping. Is this the only DIY? The tripping of clients slightly worrys me.

If you intend to have clients, forget it - spend $300 per door for zero international seal kits, put in double doors, and move on...

4. what about being able to lock up without boring a hole in for locksets?

This can be tricky - one way is to lock the outer door, caulk and seal as best you can, and use a full seal kit with surface hardware on the inner door.

5.It may be possible to build a second door vestibule(don't know if this is the correct term) but it may only be 2 or 3 feet out from the existing door. Good idea?

Definitely - without a double door, much of the other techniques for sound isolation will be overkill because you'd just lose it at the door... Steve

motown59 · Post by **motown59** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 4:17 pm

Again, you're the man! thanks.
Looks like some concrete work and framing are in order. Actually once I realized it's probably as much to frame a vestibule and buy a prehung door, as it is to try and work with one, it seems an easy decision.
now, can you poor concrete over existing concrete?

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 10:40 pm

Depends on how thick the new pour will be, and the condition of the old stuff - if the old stuff is solid, and the new will be at least an inch thick, yes - methods differ depending on these and other factors. Can you be more specific? Steve

motown59 · Post by **motown59** » Thu Dec 16, 2004 3:57 am

There is already a cement sidewalk leading up to the door on the tracking room. it's about a 30" wide walkway. Then you step up into the tracking room. It would seem that if I raised the walkway to the level of that entrance it would be safer since a small vestibule may be dark and a trip hazzard. the other thing is I would have to make it wide enough to put in the framing required for the door. So, I either rip up the concrete there already, or add it to the top and widen the sides where it meets the studio for framing/sills...
The other issue would be a cosmetic/weather concern. If I kept the distance between the two doors about 24" I wouldnt have a water dripping problem from the roof..or I'd have to frame up a demi-roof and find some cement roof tiles to match...
pics:

motown59 · Post by **motown59** » Sat Dec 18, 2004 3:16 am

my plan, based on the pic above was to clear out a lttle shrubbery and pour a slab at that 6" taller height of the studio over the sidewalk. Can I do this? I'd make it just wide enough to frame a door with 2x4 stud walls, maybe 30" out from the door that's there. I wanted to take the existing door and use it on the outside to keep the look of the home intact. On the backside of that door, glue a sheet of MDF, then a slab door entering the studio without bore holes that just pushes open...

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 1:33 am

Sounds like that should work - I'm not sure what disposal codes are like in your area, but from a structural standpoint you'll get better results if you use a muriatic acid wash on the old concrete to etch it before pouring new - then, for that size area, I would drill 4 holes thru the old concrete at about 5" from edges, and insert pieces of rebar (#4, or 1/2", is fine) - I would then tie steel mesh to the rebar using tie wires, set your forms, and pour the new layer.

I'm assuming you mean that the new layer would be 5-6" thick?

Also, does your roof overhang protect the new vestibule area? It needs to... Steve

motown59 · Post by **motown59** » Sun Dec 19, 2004 4:45 am

Thanks. I'm hip to the etching aspect on the concrete. On the sides of the sidewalk the concrete would be about 12" deep since there is nothing there now. Yes, I was talking about a 6" pour over the existing sidewalk to bring the level up to the studio floor. If I keep it about 24" the roof line would sheild the new vestibule. If I come out past that I would need to build a new demi-roof line. I did find some of the cement shingles out back so I'm in business if I want to make it a tad bigger....and I might as that would give me a little more air space and might be easier to get some things into the studio...like a Leslie Cabinet or drums.

rod gervais · Post by **rod gervais** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 6:13 am

In regards to the depth of the entryway...... you have to remember - in as much as you are a public business (you refer to clients) then you HAVE TO meet the requirements of the ADA and State Accessibility Codes for the handicapped.

If both doors open opposite one another then the vestibule has to be a minimum of 48" inside finished dimensions.

If they open in the same direction (thus one opens into the vestibule) then they have to be the 48" clear beyond the open door - so with a 36" door it would be a 7' vestibule depth.

Now - a wee bit about door widths........ the minimum clear width opening for these doors is 32"........... note that this is CLEAR width........ not door width.

So if the door opens 90 degrees - you measure from the inside face of door to the opposite inside face of trim............ if the door opens 180 degrees - from the inside face of trim to inside face of opposite trim.

That's the area required to be free 32".

With standard 1 3/4" door and 1/2" door stop/weatherstripping - this cannot be accomplished with a 2-10 door - it takes a 3'-0" door to make it happen.

So make sure you get a wide enough door.

About the threshold - the ADA establishes the maximum threshold height to be 1/2" - so make certain that the threshols you get is ADA compliant - and it has to mesh with your door bottom sweep.......

A bit about closures and door opening force.........

Your exterior door has to close tightly - but be readily accessible - the maximum opening force for this door is proscribed by your building and life safety codes - not the ADA - and are generally somewhere in the area of (quoting NFPA right now) 30 pounds of pressure for the initial opening of the door - and then 15 pounds of pressure to fully open the door. The latch has to be fully opened with a force of 15 pounds.

Interior hinged doors (back to the ADA now) cannot exceed an oepning force of 5 pounds. Yup - tis right - no more than 5 pounds of pressure from fully closed to fully open at any point along the way........... So be carefull how you set that one up.

Here's the big catch - if the door latches - it has to have a lever handle operator for the door latch........... and it is difficult to maintain this with the super isolation details required for these doors and still get the release at 15 pounds of pressure required by the code.

OK - to sum it up - you need more roof because you need more entry and you need to see to it that the installation is done very VERY professionally.

OH - one thing I forgot to mention - if you ignore the requirements of the ADA for accessibility - and (God forbid) one day someone complained - you can be fined up to $25,000 per occurance.......... not something I would chance........

Sincerely,

Rod

motown59 · Post by **motown59** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 7:01 am

Great advice Rod, thanks so kindly. Lot's to think about. It's interesting that this separate guest-house was designed as a "mother in law's" house or grandma house and yet the doors are 32" doors. I havent started anything on construction so some more thought is in order. Like a lot of "project studio" owners I'm sort of under radar as far as meeting exact codes but still want to do things right. Thanks and happy holidays!

cadesignr · Post by **cadesignr** » Wed Dec 29, 2004 2:55 pm

then you HAVE TO meet the requirements of the ADA and State Accessibility Codes for the handicapped.

Wow Rod, every time I've ever brought up ADA and Title 24 stuff for commercial ventures, I got razzberried.......good for you. I know for a fact, where I used to live(Sacramento CALIFORNIA) handicap codes were STRICT as hell. Even if you had a business at home. As long as it was a business, and the public had access, you had to bring up EVERYTHING to Title 24 compliance. Parking, bathrooms, hardware, etc. If you have a bathroom that clients use.......lookout!! Cost my boss $10k to add a bathroom AFTER he refused to comply with the handicap codes. Idiot. Tried to open a commercial space BEFORE the inspectors were through. Ha! Did he learn a lesson. Cost him $4k in fines and additional fees AND the cost of the bathroom addition.

pathdoc2 · Post by **pathdoc2** » Thu Aug 11, 2005 5:23 am

The ADA is the single thing that keeps me from incorporating my studio.

russoloco · Post by **russoloco** » Fri Aug 19, 2005 2:39 am

Hi, new hear and still trying to wade through the wealth of information. I do civil engineering here in california and as far as I know you do not have to be ADA compliant if you have less that 15 employees or are a private club. There are also "readily achievable" provisions which might apply in this case. Readily achievable meaning "easily accomplishable and able to be carried out without much difficulty or expense."

Post by **sharward** » Fri Aug 19, 2005 3:06 am

Great insights, Russ! Can you point us to any resources on the Web that might back this up or provide further details?

russoloco · Post by **russoloco** » Fri Aug 19, 2005 6:12 am

http://www.ada.gov/q&aeng02.htm this may help out. Of course local rules may be more stringent.