RC-8?

the dreamer · Post by **the dreamer** » Tue Jan 11, 2005 12:06 am

hi,
i was looking to get something like resilient channel here across "the big puddle". i had no luck.

the only thing i found was auralex RC-8 which is really expensive. has anyone experience with rc-8??
if i pay for it i want it to be effective.

the only thing i found so far here in europe are some kind of "decoupling clips" manufactured by Knauf and Rigibs. they use it in standart house building when they make a second leaf in front of 1 wall to increase transmission loss. i'm not sure how good they are.

does anyone know where to get RC-1 in europe/preferably in Austria or Germany?

thanks

(hey steve, finally i managed to do a "logged in" post !

)

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 10:59 am

Cool, not that I'm against the occasional "guest"...

Have you looked at Dietrich metal framing accessories? not sure if they're available there, here's a link -

http://www.dietrichindustries.com/bigdp ... sories.htm

The one you want is RC Deluxe Resilient Channel for best isolation; they recommend the double leg stuff for ceilings, but you can use the deluxe and space it closer if necessary, seems like it would allow a bit more flex which would better isolate between upper and lower spaces... Steve

the dreamer · Post by **the dreamer** » Wed Jan 12, 2005 5:56 pm

thanks steve! i sent them a mail, hope they have a distributor in europe.

a question:
on avs i saw a post from brian ravnaas who said:
"...ex: have a normal wall, add resilient channel + more drywall in front and you will wind up with WORSE transmission loss over some frequency range. add studs and an air space in front of a concrete block wall and the same thing happens. make that air space too small and you will create severe problems in sensitive regions. "
"...so the lesson here is simple: introduce a spring into a system to provide "isolation", and you will do so. BUT ONLY ABOVE SOME FREQUENCY. below that frequency it will be at best the same, and at worst FAR worse."
"you CANNOT put a resilient mount on a wall and say "i've isolated it". below some frequency you will have isolated nothing.
etc. and air is a spring. all springs come with a resonance."

i somehow out of my stomach understand that. (although i'm not sure if he is referring to tripple leaf in the beginning?) but how to find out where the resonance in an MSM system starts. i also do understand, to lower the resonace frequency i have to ad mass and more airspace.

so what does it mean for me. if i intend to make an inner shell ca. 10cm in front of a concrete/or brick wall and ceiling, stuff it with insulation (about 14kg/m3) and put 2 layers of gypsum (1,25/1,5cm) on RC, what will be TL then.

what "says" experience?

i could do another third layer of 1,25cm gypsumboard, can a ceiling on RC bare such a load?

what about the walls. maybe you remember, some time ago i asked you a question about my infloor heating, so i can not screw into the foor and have to glue a piece of wood on it to put the studs on. is this capable to bare a 3-leaf wall?

below you can see a sketch of may situation. the goal is to achieve as good TL to the living space as possible. (as you know I can not float the floor, which is conected to the floor of the living space by the plastic pipes of the infloor heater

) hope it's not too bad as i will not record drums in there regularly)

thanks

edit:
dietrich didn't answer, so i suppose they don't have a distributor in europe.

so options i got is rc-8 (auralex) or something similar to these rsic-clips.
what route would you go?

thank you again.

the dreamer · Post by **the dreamer** » Fri Jan 14, 2005 5:20 pm

bump...

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Sat Jan 15, 2005 2:58 pm

Sorry, I'm finally getting caught up after doing my best Crocodile Dundee impression...

I somehow out of my stomach understand that. (although i'm not sure if he is referring to triple leaf in the beginning?)

He is.

but how to find out where the resonance in an MSM system starts. i also do understand, to lower the resonace frequency i have to ad mass and more airspace.

You can get a rough idea with a freebie wall calculator, here

http://www.insul.co.nz/download.html
There are a few tricks to making this more useful and accurate; ask me after you've installed it...

so what does it mean for me. if i intend to make an inner shell ca. 10cm in front of a concrete/or brick wall and ceiling, stuff it with insulation (about 14kg/m3) and put 2 layers of gypsum (1,25/1,5cm) on RC, what will be TL then.

That's kind of light insulation for sound control; 48 kG is much better; and the rest would depend on whether brick or block, hollow or solid, thickness of the masonry, degree of decoupling of the inner frame from the masonry, caulking quality, etc -

i could do another third layer of 1,25cm gypsumboard, can a ceiling on RC bare such a load?

Sure, just put the RC's closer together. If you use RSIC clips and hat channel, they have a whole different spacing recommendation I'm not up on.

what about the walls. maybe you remember, some time ago i asked you a question about my infloor heating, so i can not screw into the foor and have to glue a piece of wood on it to put the studs on. is this capable to bare a 3-leaf wall?

Shouldn't be a problem; the base plate of the stud frame should spread the weight out enough to work fine.

so options i got is rc-8 (auralex) or something similar to these rsic-clips.
what route would you go?

Since the RC-8 tends to be pretty expensive for what you get, it should be closer to the price of the RSIC clips and hat channel; given that, I'd go with the RSIC's.

Hope that helped... Steve[/b]

the dreamer · Post by **the dreamer** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 12:44 am

steve, i really appreciate the time you spend answering to what comes out of this black hole called head

......thanks

There are a few tricks to making this more useful and accurate; ask me after you've installed it...

i installed insul but can't do something cause of the random material limitation of the trial.

what would you do in my situation and limitations (infloor-heater).
airspace? insulation? gypsumboard? (1/2/3?..thickness??)

maingoal is to prevent soundtransmission to the living area when mixing, cause this will be the "most time" function of this place. if it prevents bassamp/guitaramp on riser to leak would be even better. achievable?

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 3:47 am

A small riser, filled under with rockwool, should lessen the LF transmission into the floor; other than that, the floor is what it is, if you cover more than maybe 25% of it you'll not get heat and may get damage to what you put on top.

If there's room inside your space, inner framed walls and ceiling will go a ways toward keeping the masonry from flanking sound into your living space, and maybe the small division in your floor where the brick wall is will help lessen the flanking through the floor, I'm not sure how much -

Basically, you need decoupled surfaces (and insulated air spaces between) on all walls and ceiling inside your studio space, so the sound doesn't excite the concrete and bricks; that would be the main thing to do in this situation... Steve

the dreamer · Post by **the dreamer** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 5:36 am

thanks a bunch, steve.

the dreamer · Post by **the dreamer** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 7:58 am

about the insul:

Quote:
There are a few tricks to making this more useful and accurate; ask me after you've installed it...

so here i am

Sword9 · Post by **Sword9** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 9:57 am

That program is very buggy, unless that's some kind of copy protection, and if so, I'd never buy their program because of them implementing such a system.

the dreamer · Post by **the dreamer** » Sun Jan 16, 2005 7:25 pm

hi sam,
steve said above its a freebie wallcalculator. so i assume there must be a way to use the demo at least for some basic things.

on their website they claim their program to be within +- 3db of accuracy.

if that's right, it would be sufficient for rough estimates imo.
did you try it?

greetings

Sword9 · Post by **Sword9** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 1:11 am

I tried it, and it seems like an excellent little program. However, it was useless because the program randomly changes the wall or building materials when you click anything.

Like I said, it's either a bug or a planned copy protection system.

AVare · Post by **AVare** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 6:18 am

Sam:

read the pages on the program. It is copy/unpaid for use protection.

Andre

Sword9 · Post by **Sword9** » Mon Jan 17, 2005 9:57 am

Yeah, that's a definite bad attitude for a software company to have. They just do a 7 day or 1 hour demo of the program. After all the steps you have to go through to download and install their extra drivers and everything, you should at least be able to use the program normally for a small amount of time. That's enough to see if you want to buy it or not.

I'd rather not have a demo at all than to try to sort through a frustrating issue like that.

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Fri Jan 21, 2005 2:28 pm

It's been a while since I dnl the demo - sounds like they have replaced it with a crippled version of their newer stuff. When that demo was out, they had two full versions; a personal one for about $200 and a pro one for about $800 - last I talked with Kieth, they only had/intended to have one version, the pro one for around $1000. Apparently the demo is now different than mine, it has no "bugs" but several limitations (no save, only gypsum for walls unless you tweak the material constants, only light household insulation, etc - )

I have yet to convince Kieth that they should re-offer a "lite" version, I was hoping I could sweet-talk him into it... Steve