starting totally from scratch

[jal]

hey guys,
first off i wanna say that, ive read all kinds of forums and there are people on some forums who say things like "i have an unlimited budget and i wanna know what equipment to get to build the best studio ever?" im not that person, my questions are legitimate and sincere. im very passionate about recording and have been for along time, and this is my first chance to have a kika** studio. i do not mean to be cocky about what i just wrote i just wanted to be up front.

now that ive said that......
ive read alot on this sight like everyone and ive done some searching for specific words, ive found some things close to my questions but not exactly. so ive decided ill just ask.

ok just to let u know a lil about my situation:
ive ran my own studio for 8yrs in my house. i never really had it setup well acoustically or soundproofed it was just a quicky thing. but i have helped build some studios and i understand somewhat about what keeps sound out and in.

i just recently bought a house that has a lil land on it. i have enough space for a 1200 sqft building but i think im just gonna do 900sqft. when i say totally from scratch i mean starting with just the dirt. ive never done anything like this before and am really nervous about f'n it up.

my budget is limited but i think its a pretty good budget. the thing is i need to build the external structure, the build out inside, air conditioning, and have a bathroom. my budget is $20,000. i have a couple friends who are contractors that said they could probably do this for that price but before i start i need to ask some questions.

so here are some of my questions:

1. should i make the building a rectangular shape or a square shape? does it really matter.

2. is their any type of cement i should ask for, for the slab, or is their any type of style to lay the cement down i should ask for. i live in arizona and the ground is real hard here dont know if that tells u anything.

3. also their might be a certain height problem. im hearing that the city wont let the structure be any higher than ur house and my houses peak is pretty low 14ft to be exact. so i was wondering what the ideal heighth is for a studio? (ive heard that the overhead mics should be half way between the floor and the ceiling. my other studios ceiling was so low that if i did that they were touching the cymbals so that didnt work.)

4. one thing im very concerned about is my control room cause i c all these plans on here where the rooms are angled at a certain way and i know theres a reason why they are. how do i figure out what my angles should be? is that what the golden ratio does? when im ready for that part of the planning can u tell me how to figure that out?

5. ok and heres the 50 million dollar question.
i was thinking of the cheapest way to build the outside structure im still not sure but i think its gonna be a steel structure like this:



or like this:

<img src="http://www.olympiabuildings.com/images/ ... hed_01.jpg">

heres the websites to those buildings so u can see what their made out of:
1st one: http://www.steelmasterusa.com/steelmast ... els/q.html

2nd one: http://www.olympiabuildings.com/applica ... sheds.html

the steel buildings seem to be the cheapest way to go. do u think i could do a proper build out in those? im not planning on having a garage door like those pictures.
i really want block but im thinking thats gonna be all my money and i hear wood is getting expensive. any help would be good.

oh by the way as far as neighbors go and how loud and often ill be playing:
it doesnt need to be completely soundproof from the outside a small murmur would be fine. the closest neighbor is probably a good 70ft from where the structure will be. ill be recording daily and sometimes late at nite. my main concern with soundproofing is between the live room and the control room. i really want that completely soundproofed. at my last studio i had to record the drums and then play them back to see what it really sounded like and that sucked. i record bands mostly and their loud.

"im thinking of what else i need to tell u"
oh, in my plans id like a lobby area (just a place for the bands to hang and smoke and stuff nothing big at all), one bathroom (no shower), the control room i want to be a good size so its comfortable for like 8 people including me and so im not running into people with my chair (hehe), the live room im not real worried about i use alot of gobos and such, but i want it big cause i do alot of live recording with the band all in the same room, and then one real dead vocal boothe for the rapp bands (hehe) id like to beable to c inside the v ocal boothe from the controla nd also have the vocalist beable to see inside the live room (so 2 windows in there)

just a note im really into natural room sound. my recordings hardly ever have artificial reverb, and id really like to be able to get a nice airy sound if i want to. i dont know if u guys are familiar with "the flaming lips" or not but on their albums "clouds taste metallic" and "transmissions from satellite heart", is the type of the room sound i like u can hear it in the drums mostly. i know alot of that sound is overcompression but i hear the original sound in there too.
i also love the sound of an old victorian style house like the hollow wooden floors and all the sound waves bouncing off the wood finishings. i know its not gonna sound exactly like that but i just thought id throw that in. hehe.

man i feel i wrote too much and asking for too much help let me know if i am and also let me know if theirs anything i didnt tell u that u need to know to help me. i dont move in till august 19th so i wont beable to do anything till then. but i thought id ask these questions now so i can do some research before im actually ready with the constuction.

thanks in advance, -jal
ps: sorry about all the lowercase but i suck at typing, i also appologise for my writing skills

[Dan Fitzpatrick]

jai,

look here for ideas on studio plans

http://www.saecollege.de/reference_material/index.html

also i don't think a metal shed type thing is going to be good as you outer leaf. it needs to be massive not thin sheet metal.

i don't like the curved top shed idea either. too hard to construct inside.

learn about mass-air-mass 2-leaf constuction

hope that helps

dan

[jal]

i understand its gonna be thin. i planned on adding a large outer shell consisting of thick insulation and a couple layers of dry wall against the inside wall of the steel building. not unlike silvas walls. plus they insulate it when they put the building up that i think will help a lil too.
do u not think that would be massive enough? the reason im looking into the steel building thing is cause i think its gonna run cheaper than anything else.

thanks dan, -jal

[sharward]

You need to learn more about mass-air-mass. What you've described is not nearly massive enough... And if you intend to have another wall besides that, you're looking at a three leaf system.

Start here.

[sharward]

i have aleady read alot of the reference area, i think i understand the mass-air mass thing. when i said i was gonna "add a large outer shell consisting of thick insulation and a couple layers of dry wall against the inside wall of the steel building. not unlike silvas walls." i meant like the last wall on the picture below.

Jal, that graphic you posted is great -- it's probably on the site fifty times now, and it's one of those those things that "can't appear enough" because it illustrates the point so well -- two leaves OK, three leaves bad, four leaves awful, and two heavy leaves great!

but i needed a good seal between the steel wall and the wall im gonna build.

Yeah, I'm not sure how well those steel buildings are sealed...

i thought the insulation would be good, cause it would form against the steel wall.
i get the reason why sharward would consider that a three leaf, because of the steel wall (leaf 1), insulation (air), 2 layers of drywall (leaf 2), insulation (air), then another 2 layer of drywall (leaf 3) . thats why ur saying itd be a three leaf, right?

Correct.

what i was planning on doing was:
steel wall (leaf 1), insulation (air), 2 layers of drywall (leaf 2), insulation (air), 3" air gap (air), insulation (air), then burlap or something over the insulation. would that be better?

Probably... But steel building walls are not flat -- they're corrigated for strength. That being the case, you'll end up with walls similar to the roof in Carsten's Nightsky Studio Thread. I'm not sure what you can expect with that.

If I were in your position, with a piece of dirt ready to build on, I would avoid the steel building and go for another kind of construction altogether -- ether timber or concrete block (filled with sand of course) as your outer leaf.

the reason im looking into the steel building thing is cause i think its gonna run cheaper than anything else.

Maybe. Of course, steel prices have skyrocketed over the past couple of years.

--Keith

[jal]

um im suppose to post this here but sharward posted most of it, but here it is:

i have aleady read alot of the reference area, i think i understand the mass-air mass thing. when i said i was gonna "add a large outer shell consisting of thick insulation and a couple layers of dry wall against the inside wall of the steel building. not unlike silvas walls." i meant like the last wall on the picture below.




but i needed a good seal between the steel wall and the wall im gonna build. i thought the insulation would be good, cause it would form against the steel wall.
i get the reason why sharward would consider that a three leaf, because of the steel wall (leaf 1), insulation (air), 2 layers of drywall (leaf 2), insulation (air), then another 2 layer of drywall (leaf 3) . thats why ur saying itd be a three leaf, right?
what i was planning on doing was:
steel wall (leaf 1), insulation (air), 2 layers of drywall (leaf 2), insulation (air), 3" air gap (air), insulation (air), then burlap or something over the insulation. would that be better?

thanks- jal
i think maybe i shouldnt be saying this on this post and that i should be saying it on the "starting totally from scratch" post. am i right?

[jal]

ok sharward im gonna comment on what u just said.
(i hope this doesnt confuse anyone because of what i just posted)

well the only thing i think i need to comment on is the point u made about the steel being corrigated.
the reason i wanted to put a thick layer of insulation next to the steel wall is cause it is corregated and i thought the insulation smooshed against the steel wall would make somewhat of a seal between the steelwall and the first mass. maybe not though.
also they spray a real thick layer of insulation on the inner walls of those buildings and i thought that would make it even more stronger. what do u guys think.
ill look at "carstens nightsky studio thread" and probably comment somemore.
thanks again u guys r awesome, -jal

[Dan Fitzpatrick]

jal,

you are causing yourself more trouble by starting with this metal building. if it was already built then you'd have to deal with it but you are making more effort for yourself for no reason.

using the metal as your outer leaf is not going to be very good. it is neither heavy enough nor stiff enough to do a good job. it may even resonate audibly.

so you will have to do what is scientifically known as "beefing up" your outer leaf without creating an extra airspace. this will be a lot of money and trouble.

trust me, i am going through this with my garage door and you would not want to get into this voluntarily.

stick to the methods recommended on this site if you want success.

dan

[sharward]

Ditto what Dan said.

I understand your concept about using insulation to form to the corregated steel. Yes, that will form, but it won't "seal." If you go gypsum/studs-insulation-gypsum/studs-insulation-steel, you have three leaves, and that's not good. If you figure out a way to add mass to the steel shell, you'll eliminate one of the leaves, but at great cost in terms of complexity, time consumption, and special materials.

I'm not aware of any project on this forum, or anywhere else really, where a steel building like that was built "on purpose" to house a studio.

If you avoid corregated steel altogether and opt for a flatter outer shell, you'll be much happier.

--Keith

[jal]

ok ill try to figure something out. the only reason i was thinking about it is cost, i can almost get one for free. ur probably right it might not be worth it.

ok with that said why would u do the staggered stud method and not the double wall method?

i have read a little about staggered studs on the forum but havent found that answer?

also for the life of me i cant find the meaning to: stc, is their a glossary section on this forum? i thought it might be on the reference area but i dont see one anywhere?

thanks -jal

[Dan Fitzpatrick]

ok with that said why would u do the staggered stud method and not the double wall method?

jal, the Canadian research report called IR-761 has lots of data for staggered stud configs and double stud and metal stud, etc.

Here is a link to the abstract page, the link to the full PDF is on this page.

http://irc.nrc-cnrc.gc.ca/fulltext/ir761/

this will show you TESTED results of a zillion different wall constructions (note: none use sheet metal for either leaf )

but since you asked, if you have a good amount of space the double wall is definitely better than staggered stud.

as far as STC you can probably find that info in the "complete section" that sharward referenced above; or just do a web search.

STC is a rough measure of how well a wall performs, and represents the number of decibels you can expect sound to decrease from one side of a wall to the other.

but notice that it does not tell you anything about performance at different frequencies, and does not take into account AT ALL data below 125hz.

dan

[sharward]

ok with that said why would u do the staggered stud method and not the double wall method?

i have read a little about staggered studs on the forum but havent found that answer?

From worst to best...

• Single frame wall with one leaf on one side (single leaf)
  Single frame wall with one leaf on each side (double leaf)
  Single frame wall with one leaf on each side, one of which has resilient channel (a.k.a. "RC") (double leaf)
  Single frame wall with one leaf on each side, using staggered studs (double leaf)
  Two single leaf walls on separate frames very close together (double leaf)
  Two single leaf walls on separate frames separated with some distance (double leaf)

In short, two separate frames is superior to single frame with staggered studs. Staggered studs are usually done when square footage loss must be kept to a minimum but losing 2-3" at the perimeter is acceptable.

also for the life of me i cant find the meaning to: stc, is their a glossary section on this forum? i thought it might be on the reference area but i dont see one anywhere?

STC = Sound Transmission Class. It is a number that takes into account a limited range of sound, primarily for speech. Higher STC numbers generally mean better soundproofing. However the range that STC covers is grossly insufficient in the context of music studios -- STC ignores the low lows and the high highs encountered in studio situations. Low end is a bitch to control and is what usually generates the complaints. Two wall constructions with the same STC rating may have extremely different low end TL (a.k.a. "transmission loss") measurements.

Bottom line, you can't rely on STC as a yardstick. You need to focus on low end TL.

Adding the definition of STC, and why it's not an overly meaningful number in studio context, would be a good addition to the Reference Area thread... I'll run that by Steve (a.k.a. "knightfly").

[jal]

sweet thanks for the reply i learned alot. i looked at those abstract pages awhile ago and didnt understand any of it. ill look at it again.

thanks again =jal

[knightfly]

I'm in the process of getting bids to redo my shop roof; it's 36 x 48 building, takes 19 squares and the bids are running around $1800 just for the metal roofing (26 ga) - this comes to the equivalent of $28.80 a sheet if the metal were in 4x8 foot sheets. I'm having one of the bidders re-do their bid figuring on heavier purlins and a plywood/tar paper/architectural fiberglass shingle roof because it should be as cheap as metal, quieter, and no condensation to deal with.

Point is, you may find that you can build an outer frame and put a much heavier layer of stucco, or T1-11 wood siding with gypsum inserts for your outer leaf, as cheap as metal and with no "third leaf" problems. Stucco has about the same mass per unit thickness as gypsum for calculation purposes. So you may be able to build an almost exact duplicate of the "63 dB" wall, just substituting stucco or wood siding for the outermost layer, and not have it cost much different than a steel building.

Something to consider... Steve

[jal]

thanks i will. ive been considering that ive also been thinking about laying block myself. is there any post on here about using block the right way? i heard someone mention putting sand in the blocks.