Soundproof booth for saxophone practice

sweetchops · Post by **sweetchops** » Sat Nov 05, 2005 3:55 am

Hi,

I'm currently considering the different options i have in order to considerably
reduce the noise i make when i practice on my saxophone.
I would like to either buy a prefab booth or build one from scratch. I hope to find the necessary information in order to choose between these 2 solutions thanks to the help i'll find on this forum.

From my experience, playing a horn in an urban environment has always been a bit of a challenge and very often a nuisance to some of the neighbours...in fact, in all the flats that i have lived in, there's always been just ONE intolerant noise-freak nazi, but one is enough to make practicing a hellish experience. Actually, i have come to realize that in my current situation, my practicing time has suffered greatly from the stress this situation causes whenever i pick up my horn to blow a few notes even if there'll be no complaints during that particular session, i'll still be too inhibited and self-conscious to really enjoy playing freely.
So i would like to purchase a booth not only to satisfy the odd enraged neighbour stereotype one can encounter when playing sax living in an appartment but also - and most importantly - to buy myself the peace of mind i need to concentrate on my music and not on the surrounding environment and broomstick thumps on the floorboard.

At this point, i know little to nothing about acoustics and soundproofing. Make that nothing. So far, I've contacted Whisperroom and am waiting for a price quote for a possible delivery from the UK to Belgium, although i suspect the shipping will be out of price. Nevertheless, i'm just looking into it to see how plausible that solution is. This is about as far as i can go on my own. I'm waiting for their answer.

Regardless of weither i build it or buy it - appart from the obvious expectation that it effectively muffles my sound down to a very low volume - i would need it to be dismountable since i'll be moving out of my current appartment in a year and will probably be moving out again after that. You get the idea, i'm not looking for an irremovable booth but rather a quality booth i can precauciously dismantle for further use elsewhere.

Regarding my Whisperroom inquiry, here is the model that i would buy if it were to satisfy my acoustical and financial requirements : http://www.whisperroom.com/big564.html#photo. So basically, if i would come to build a booth, i think these specs would suit me (4'x 4') with about the same height as shown on the photo. My budget would also be around 2500$.

So to resume i would expect the booth to have 1° unquestionnable soundproofing muffling/deading etc... qualities (i know absolutes are not possible) or at least the most effective possible for my price range (and i hope that means very effective:)).

And i would need it to be 2° dismountable for further use in other appartments i'm likely to occupy.

If you have any further questions i'll try to answer the best as i can within reason.

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:13 am

Last I checked, Whisperroom's were closer to TWICE that price for anything usable (their STANDARD booths don't do very well, you need the double walled version for any SERIOUS isolation) -

For your budget (and MUCH easier portability

) have you considered something like the Yamaha WX wind controller? I know, it's not a REAL instrument - but it fits within your budget and NO ONE will hear it but you, and you can move it in about 3 minutes -

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/Con ... CT,00.html

http://www.yamaha.com/yamahavgn/CDA/Con ... CT,00.html

The controller AND the tone module would cost about HALF your budget instead of TWICE. Just a thought... Steve

Pennywizz6 · Post by **Pennywizz6** » Sat Nov 05, 2005 11:58 am

Never used one of these so I dont know how good they work, but it would work for you price wise. http://www.soundsuckers.com/4x4.htm#4x4

Fill

sweetchops · Post by **sweetchops** » Sat Nov 05, 2005 10:05 pm

their STANDARD booths don't do very well, you need the double walled version for any SERIOUS isolation

hmmmm, sounds like you're saying their booths aren't that good...don't you think that eventhough you would hear the sax from within the same room, there would be less chances of the sound managing its way through the neigbouring walls ? I've heard some good stuff about these standard booths as well as some more crititical remarks regarding its reliablity. I'm interested by both sides of the story in order to make the right decision for me.

But baring in mind that the shipping from UK (i'm not even considering shipping from the US to Europe!) might be quite hefty, i was thinking that maybe with my approx. budget of +- 2500$ (which i can bend either way) i could come up with a selfmade booth with better isolation and better quality materials involved cause that way i could shift all my ressources in the materials department (which means i wouldn't have to pay for labour and shipping as for these booths)...it's just an idea but i would need some expert advice here.

have you considered something like the Yamaha WX wind controller?

My answer to that is definitely no. This is a very poor substitute, hell it's not even a sax, this won't help me in anyway to practice my tone, overtones, action, breath control (actually

) on a REAL sax is quite a different league, exercise my chops, etc...
It would be like asking a pianist to play with a synth from now on...won't work for me.

Pennywizz6,

Never used one of these so I dont know how good they work, but it would work for you price wise. http://www.soundsuckers.com/4x4.htm#4x4

Thanks for the link, unfortunately this is kinda the same problem i was exposing with the Whisperrooms namely the shipping cost from US to Europe. Plus they're about the same price as the others. Could anyone testify on the quality of these booths ?

Post by **sharward** » Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:21 am

sweetchops wrote:
have you considered something like the Yamaha WX wind controller?

My answer to that is definitely no. This is a very poor substitute, hell it's not even a sax, this won't help me in anyway to practice my tone, overtones, action, breath control (actually ) on a REAL sax is quite a different league, exercise my chops, etc...
It would be like asking a pianist to play with a synth from now on...won't work for me.

I hear you -- I'm often asked, "Why don't you just get an electronic drum set?" While they are fun, and if money and square footage were no object, I'd probably have one, in addition to a real drum kit.

--Keith

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Sun Nov 06, 2005 3:46 am

I agree with your comments that it's nowhere near the same thing; I only threw that out there because of your budget, which won't be enough for a pre-made booth.

I also think that, unless you play BARITONE sax, a single walled booth (in ADDITION to your existing walls) would be enough to tame your sound - still, MUCH more expensive to buy AND ship than to just build, assuming you have the abilities.

The downside of building yourself is making it portable; there are some fairly tricky joints used in the Whisperroom booths, I'm not sure I would have much luck duplicating this (and I have a LOT of tools, as well as being somewhat of a crazy inventor)

Still, if you REALLY can get a single wall whisperroom shipped to you for your budget, for your intended purpose it should work... Steve

sweetchops · Post by **sweetchops** » Sun Nov 06, 2005 4:16 am

I hear you -- I'm often asked, "Why don't you just get an electronic drum set?" While they are fun, and if money and square footage were no object, I'd probably have one, in addition to a real drum kit.

Keith your remark's right on the money so to speak

In the same vein, i would consider a Wind Controller only for exploring different acoustical possibilities my ordinary sax doesn't offer, but certainly not as a full time - let alone part time - substitute for the real deal

I'm really thinking this whole booth issue over. Although i haven't yet received the price quote for the Whipserroom shipping I'm kinda leaning towards the "do-it-yourself" option. The main reason being that - from what i've read in the different topics - with any given budget (generally speaking) the outcome is usually better quality wise when you buy your own material, right ? From what i understand, chances are that it couldl even be cheaper AND better than the whisperroom.

Knightfly, what exactly do you mean by not being able to make it portable ? Should i choose to build it what would possibly prevent me from dismantling/unscrewing it carefuly to re-assemble it elsewhere ? Please give me hope !
Also, i think i would hire a carpenter of some kind to make sure things are done correctly.

I was thinking maybe i could measure the pitch/decibels of my sax (tenor btw not bari

) and according to the outcome target what sound killing materials i need... (?) Is that a feasible idea to start ? Budget wise, please tell me 2500$ is good. What materials would you recommend for a high pitched sax sound ? I'm saying this because i guess i would be looking for different materials were i a bass player for example...

knightfly · Post by **knightfly** » Sun Nov 06, 2005 4:46 am

Building a "take-down" booth is doable; you just need to use different materials for mass than you would for a permanent booth, and find a method of sealing between panels that WILL allow you to disassemble and move them. And yes, $2500 will go a LOT further this way than it will for buying and shipping - it's been a while since I've looked at whisperrooms, but I don't remember ANY of them being that cheap even WITHOUT shipping. Just checked their site, and the model you linked costs $2690 USD WITHOUT shipping; the ENHANCED version (double wall) costs nearly twice that, and would be about twice as heavy as well.

I won't have enough time soon to draw necessary details, but hopefully in a few days - you may be able to build a heavy (1" MDF) single wall booth that, in combinations with your apartment walls, would attenuate sax enough to work for you.

If you can post an MP3 file of you playing your sax, I can do a spectrum analysis which would help figure out what main frequencies need to be conrolled more... Steve

sweetchops · Post by **sweetchops** » Mon Nov 07, 2005 10:19 pm

Building a "take-down" booth is doable; you just need to use different materials for mass than you would for a permanent booth, and find a method of sealing between panels that WILL allow you to disassemble and move them

Now i was just thinking...if i choose to go for a "permanent" booth instead, what would prevent me from moving the whole thing (could i have it moved by professionals for instance) ? Is it too heavy (what's the average weight of these things (say a 120-120-200 cm)) ? Is it fragile, would it break ?

Bare in mind i have no background in this domain, so i'm kinda discovering as we go on

I guess the way i'm gonna go depends on the advice and experience the users of this forum are willing to share : "take-down" or "permanent" ?

I won't have enough time soon to draw necessary details, but hopefully in a few days

Ok, no prob. I'm interested to find out though. Keep in mind my budget can be expandable if really necessary.

you may be able to build a heavy (1" MDF) single wall booth that, in combinations with your apartment walls, would attenuate sax enough to work for you

I'm pretty sure it'll have to be a 4 sided fully closed booth. The configuration of my walls wouldn't allow any other solution.

Knightfly, I'll try sending you a recording of my sax this week (and thanks for all the advice up to now!).

Post by **sharward** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 12:01 am

sweetchops wrote:If I choose to go for a "permanent" booth instead, what would prevent me from moving the whole thing (could i have it moved by professionals for instance) ?

Where would the booth be located when finished?

What are the doorway sizes leading to the outside?

I'm betting once it is asssembled, it will be too large to be able to leave the room in one piece...

sweetchops · Post by **sweetchops** » Tue Nov 08, 2005 4:08 am

I'm betting once it is asssembled, it will be too large to be able to leave the room in one piece... Rolling Eyes

Yeah you're right, it didn't even occur to me

I guess it's because my mind is so fixed on it being really good soundproof wise i kinda left the door width "detail" out

sweetchops · Post by **sweetchops** » Tue Nov 15, 2005 4:53 am

Ok, for practical reasons i can't come up with any recording but nevermind, i suggest we work with the admitted frequency range of the tenor sax which is pretty much the same for all tenors. There won't be any big surprise there, my sax will very likely be in this range.

I've checked different websites and i've found that the admitted frequency spectrum - from low to high range (or the other way round i don't really know) - would be around +- 110Hz - 630 Hz.
This should help i hope.

For reminders, i'm looking for a 4 wall booth, dismantable and as effective as possible in dampening the sound for the neighbours (---> what materials?)

sweetchops · Post by **sweetchops** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 12:55 am

Must i add something else ?

Please tell me if i wasn't complete enough.

giles117 · Post by **giles117** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 2:45 am

I'd stick with steves idea of a take down booth.

I think of it like a play set. you build each wall, the floor and the ceiling. then have them bolt together with neoprene on the ends of the wall and ceiling pcs (for sealing purposes) and neoprene on the top outer edge and bottom of the flooring section - floating and again sealing the pcs together.

Use Lag Bolts or Carriage Bolts and Washer to bolt the thing together and you should be just fine. I would finish both sides with drywall and use hanging tratments or velcro mounted treatments on the interior surface to mount absorption. If you built it with 4 walls of varying lengths you end up with a non symmtrical unit that should sound really good.

I actually built something similar for my first Remote Recording truck (I was broke and couldnt buy a 20' truck so I built something to SLIDE into a Uhaul.)

sweetchops · Post by **sweetchops** » Wed Nov 16, 2005 3:41 am

I have no experience in building these kind of things. And since obviously i have no blueprints, i wouldn't know where to start.

As i have said i would like to get the best possible materials for my needs (ie frequency range of sax) within my budget which seemingly is ample enough.

I know you can't spell everything out for me and i've been doing some research by myself but as i said i wouldn't know what to start with and how.

So in no particular order here are a few questions...i will certainly come up with more, and i most certainly have missed important points due to my lack of knowledge in this matter so please fill me in with all the advice you judge necessary (more than welcome). I'm just getting acquainted with the "theoretical" side and i must admit it's still quite blurry in my mind. I'm not always sure what i'm talking about. Just trying to get hold of a few concepts but i'm not certain i understand the whole process of the construction...

- To start with, what walls ? From what i've read wood is not a good absorbant, so do i get drywall/sheetrock/gypsum ? Are there different types ? Any particular thickness (ie using different thickness may be better?)? Simple question, how do i assemble a leaf so it stays together !? Afterwards, how do i fix the walls together ?

- What exactly is a leaf ? Is it the different layers i use for one wall ? How many sheets of drywall should compose my leaf ? Is the spring, the airspace left in the middle of my wall ? Should the spring be filled with something absorbant too, like mineral wool,thermafiber, rigid fibreglass ?

- I should avoid dimensions that are multiples of each other.

- Concerning the take down side which is essential in my case...what mechanism can i use? Just screws ? Don't i have to use corner beads or something like that, and then seal it with some caulk ? But in that case how can i take it down (in a year's time) ? Actually doesn't the whole process usually require abundant sealing all over the place ?

- Regarding the door, isn't this an extremely tricky part for someone with no building/handywork experience? How do i even "make" a door ? With what materials ? How do i make sure it's absolutely sealed when closed ?

- What materials for the floor (and ceiling) ? I haven't really fully understood yet what "floating" means.

- How do i fix a proper ventilation system without creating a catastrophic sound leak ? I'll have to do it anyway since it's gonna get really hot in there...

- Should i place a window ? Ideally i'd like too. But isn't it a big hassle ? Will it be sound absorbant enough ? What material ?

Unfortunately i haven't found a step by step method for constructing a booth, so i may have missed or misinterpreted some vital elements. Sorry for the confusing layout but that's because i don't have any clear vision of how things ought to be. I may give the impression of just juggling with words i do not yet fully understand...

I hope you can help me clear a few things out