help: Basement studio with low ceiling

[Mr. Nemo]

Hi all,

First of all thank for your site. I am doing the plan before construction for my basement studio and it provided me with good info that I finally get on to my keyboard to see if I got it right. I hope on your feedback to know if it is possible and what I would need to correct on my ideas. I found a company specialized in isolation material and I intend to look there for many of the equipment I will need (wall unit, roofing, decoupling etc..). That is their web site http://www.isolbruit.com/

I would like to build a small studio in my basement and I would like to keep my budget under CHF 10k (about US$ 7000, wish things were as cheep as in the US or in OZ).

What I start with (all is in inch):

1. garage 354.3 X 137.7 with two window
2. a room next to it of 165.3 X 147.6 with a 13.7 reinforced wall ( you know, the one they build in case of a atomic bomb that will surely save your life if you stay about 150 years in), and a window
3. a small room of 66.9 X 74.8

The high is of 92.9 but the garage have a dip on ceiling at 145.6 of 7 that leave me with a ceiling of 85.8. ( I added a sketchup file)

It is a joint house with neighbors living in the same house but on the other side. I live in a street where there is only small car traffic and there is a small train passing bye at 98 fr or so.
I would like to record instruments going from drums to double bass. From jazz to rock. I would like to make room 1 pretty dead and room 2 to record acoustic instruments.

I need a maximum isolation from the cars, train and its time to time whistle and house noises, the minimum bass transmission while keeping the maximum space (yes I already dropped a coin in the local fountain for my wish javascript:emoticon('') ). (Spark One Studio and Bluefield were good inspirations)

Control Room isolation:

Put a wall in the garage at 181.1 where there is the 85.8 high. This is the size that I came up with a frequency room calculator and that give me the less peak and dip considering the high of the room. The sketchup file is attached.

Front/Rear wall would be:

rear is 11.8 brick wall

4 inch air,
2/3.5 inch wood stud filled with insulation,
0.2 inch bitumen sheet,
1.25 inch Panterre wood panel (see the web site for description of material),
2/3.5 inch stud filled with insulation with slat resonator.

this would make about 9.45 inch isolation. The adjacent rooms will have the same type of wall isolation. The room on the side of the control room will have a 6 inch brick wall in between.

The main speakers will be flush mounted taking example on the techniques described on this web site. The front wall will have a glass door (eventually sliding door to save space) to have a visual with one of the room. Opinion?

The side walls would be:

left wall is 11.8 inch brick and right is 6 inch brick separation with room 2

2 inch insulation,
0.2 inch bitumen sheet,
1.25 inch Panterre,
2/3.5 inch wood stud filled with insulation and slat resonator

this would make 5.45 inch isolation.

I will also put bass trap on the back corner and under the speakers

Roof would be:

1.45 inch cavalier anti-vibration ( screwed into the ceiling and rubber mounted. Check the site for it http://www.isolbruit.com/index.php?page=105 ) filled with insulation,
4 inch sempatap wood panel
0.5 bitumen
2/3.5 inch wood stud willed with insulation

this would make 7.95 inch isolation.

Floor would be:

0.31 inch anti-vibration pad's (5 X 5 X 0. under the wood studs
2/3.5 inch wood studs filled with insulation
1.25 inch Panterre
carpet

this would make 3.56 inch isolation

The worries I have is on the high. From 85.5 high after correction I will have 74.29 inch.

Questions:

1.Is the hight of 74.29 (6.1 ft) ok for a control room?
2.If I only use the panterre 1.25 inch on the pads I would gain 1.77 inch, would the isolation still be efficient?
3.Is my ceiling layering a good solution or is there a better solution?
4. What do you think about the cavalier anti-vibration fixation unit? Is there a better solution?

If you have any other suggestion on the room placement/isolation/solution please don't hesitate. Thanks already for reading and waiting for your inputs.

Hope this version with the conversion of cm to inch will help you give me a opinion, in the waiting of you answer... happy new year

Mike

[Mr. Nemo]

hi,

I hoped someone would answer. Is it because it is metric? or did I miss giving some infos? or maybe too much? should I shrink it?

thnx

Mike

[knightfly]

Mike, you've done nothing wrong; I've just been swamped between work, paid projects and the holidays. I'm hoping to get to you sometime tonight (about 15 hours from now) - metric info slows me down a bit, but not much. It's more just age and not enough hours in a day... Steve

[Mr. Nemo]

Steve, I inched the project, hope it will help to give you an idea of the plan.
Mike

[knightfly]

I tried using babelfish to translate panterre - it came back "panterre"...

My french is non-existent, so you'll need to describe each of these specialized panels in non-french terms so I can get an idea what they are.

Also, your comments

left wall is 11.8 inch brick and right is 6 inch brick separation with room 2

2 inch insulation,
0.2 inch bitumen sheet,
1.25 inch Panterre,
2/3.5 inch wood stud filled with insulation and slat resonator

this would make 5.45 inch isolation.

I don't see where you're getting a 5.45 inch isolation - your effective air gap would be from the surface of the brick to the surface of the Panterre, whatever that is (assuming it's MASS) - perhaps a detail sketch of the wall, layer by layer, would help?

Also, if you can check around your area for other, more NORMAL building materials that are HEAVY, you may be able to save yourself a LOT of money; usually anything you buy from a place such as the one you linked will cost you a LOT more than it needs to for the same results - if you can look locally for gypsum wallboard, also known as plasterboard, gypboard, sheet rock, and also look for MDF, mineral wool/rockwool/slagwool/cotton wool insulation -

If you have room for double walls AND a separate, inner ceiling frame, you don't need (or want) any resilient mounts for ceiling; this will also not only save money, but give you better isolation.

Sorry this got lost, wasn't intentional... Steve

[Mr. Nemo]

thx Steve,

indeed there is missing 10 cm (3.9 inch) air gap in the wall description.

here is a translation of the info on the pan-terre and sempatrap from the web site so you know what it is about, your opinion would be well come. I will do noise level test this week. I will also post a sketch of the layering.

PAN-TERRE

Mix cellulose, paper recycled and strands of flax, rigid panel
100% NATURALNESS. Plays a hygrometrical regulating part and thus brings a real comfort of environment. In a fireproof version, it receives a
processing in the mass which confers a M1 classification to him according to standard NFP 92-501, the adhesive used for the completion is based on polyvinyl acetate not containing formaldehyde.

Characteristics: guaranteed without any toxic binder, asbestos and
formol.

Imputrescible and stable in time. A vibratory level near to human
balance 6400 Angströms an absorption of moisture of 6,97% of profit
in volume for 24 hours of immersion.



COMPLETION Plasterboard

dimensions: 1,25 X 1,20 m (4.1 ft x 3.93 ft)
thickness: 32 mm (1.25 inch)
weight: 16 kg/m2 (35.2 US pounds)


SEMPATAP

SEMPATAP ISO

dimensions: 0,60 X 1 m (1.96 ft X 3.2 ft)
thickness: 25 mm (0.98 inch)
weight: 2,3 kg/m2 (5.07 US pounds)

let me know what you think about it. Thanks

[knightfly]

Even the COMPLETION plasterboard is just slightly more than HALF as dense as standard gypsum wallboard, and the other two sound to me like they're similar to Homosote, or "sound board" - 'way too expensive and light to be worth bringing home for a serious sound proofing job.

Did you get a chance to see if your local building supplier has any NORMAL plasterboard available, or MDF (stands for Medium Density Fiberboard) ? 15mm gypsum wallboard should weigh about 33 kG for a 1200 x 2400mm sheet, and 19mm MDF should weigh about 100 lbs (45 kG) for a 1200 x 2400mm sheet.

It's MASS you want, so either of these materials, or masonry, is what will work best.

The only thing that's MORE important, is WHERE you put it... Steve

[Mr. Nemo]

Yesterday I went to have a look at what was available and found platerboard 9,5 or 12,5 mm thick and they also had MDF. Getting the price lists in the next few day's.
Also, what is your opinion on the hight issue for the control room?

I will post the layering of the walls soon.

thx.. Mike

[knightfly]

height - I need to download the newer sketchup, your file won't open. That's a really low ceiling, so the least you'd need to do is use more than normal amounts of absorption in the room to counteract the acoustic problems of small spaces... Steve

[Mr. Nemo]

(already modifying this one, but still want suggestions..thx)

Hi all, hi Steve,

Thanks to your advises I have been working and thinking a lot about the layout and layering of the rooms after the first sketch and advises I had. I came up finally with this. (Sketchup file attached)

Layering:

Floor:
Control room and Room 2: 3 cm (1.18 inch) MDF / 1 cm (0.39 inch) plasterboard / parquet above approx. 10 cm (3.9 inch) air gap with 5 cm glass wool.
Room 1: 2 cm (0.78 inch) MDF / 1 cm (0.39 inch) plasterboard / 0.5 cm (0.19 inch) bitumen sheet / parquet above approx. 5 cm (1.98 inch) air gap with 2 cm (0.78 inch) glass wool.

Ceiling:
Control room and Room 2: 2 cm (0.78 inch) MDF / 2 cm (0.78 inch) plasterboard / under 10 cm (3.9 inch) air gap filled with 5 cm (1.98 inch) of glass wool
Room 1: 1 cm (0.39 inch) MDF / 0.5 cm (0.19 inch) bitumen sheet / under 5 cm (1.98 inch) air gap filled with 2 cm (1.98 inch) of glass wool

Walls:
ORANGE: 5 cm (1.5 inch) glass wool / 2 cm (0.78 inch) MDF / 2 cm (0.78 inch) plasterboard / 5 cm (1.5 inch) glass wool (working as absorbent for reflection in the rooms)
RED: 5 cm (1.5 inch) glass wool / 0.5 cm (0.19 inch) bitumen sheet / 2cm (0.78 inch) MDF / 2 cm (0.78 inch) plasterboard / 5 cm (1.5 inch) glass wool (working as absorbent for reflection in the rooms) The bitumen sheet will be inside the control room and room 2 and outside room 1.

Control room: Height approx 206 cm (6.75 ft.) after isolation. It will be absorbent at the speaker side and broad band reflect from the door to the back. Bass trap under the speaker and at the back of the room with panel going from 60 cm (23.6 inch) to 30 cm (11.8 inch) width. The back bass trap will from floor to ceiling.

Room 1: will be used as a vocal booth / solo instrument. Height approx. 198 cm (6.49 ft.) after isolation. All walls will be absorbent with a broad band reflect at the back.

Room 2: will be used as a live room. Height approx 206 cm (6.75 ft.) after isolation. All walls will have broad band reflection panels. There will be a variable panel that open when the bunker door is closed.

I would like your opinion on the new layering and new layout of the rooms. Is this going to be efficient?
Is there anything I should be aware of?
Is the 2 cm (0.78 inch) MDF too much / not enough for wall and ceiling?
What would you suggest for the framing of the ceiling in the lower part of the garage that will hold the MDF + bitumen sheet?

Thank you for your help

Mike

[Mr. Nemo]

The only thing that's MORE important, is WHERE you put it... Steve

As you could see in my sketchup files I added density to the rooms walls that were against the most transmiting house walls.
Is it correct or would it be better to densify the wall itself? (by applying the bitumen on the wall instead of the rooms walls)

thx

Mike[/quote]

[knightfly]

Density of MDF is approx. 1.25 x that of gypsum - 2 layers 12.5mm gypsum would = 1 layer of 20mm MDF, assuming both are solid with no cracks, etc. -

I've little time presently, but would NOT use that little insulation under a floor whether floated or NOT. You want a partial COMPPRESSION of insulation in ALL cases to provide DAMPING of the membrane, else you will create a very disturbing and LARGE "drum head". So your insulation thickness (pre-installed) should be enough GREATER than the depth available so that the first panel applied over the insulation compresses the insulation enough to maintain SNUG contact.

Front of the CR - as you've drawn it, you will tend toward some horn loading of speakers; this will be better if changed so the baffle extension (soffit face) continues STRAIGHT toward the window as I've shown.

Didn't see any framing or a garage, I'll need to get more time on that.

Your placement of more mass to the outer leaf is fine; and depending on the amount of isolation you need, I'd consider either 20mm MDF or 2 layers 12.5mm plasterboard to be MINIMAL for either inner or outer leaf... Steve

Sorry, here's the re-draw -

[Mr. Nemo]

I've little time presently, but would NOT use that little insulation under a floor whether floated or NOT. You want a partial COMPPRESSION of insulation in ALL cases to provide DAMPING of the membrane, else you will create a very disturbing and LARGE "drum head". So your insulation thickness (pre-installed) should be enough GREATER than the depth available so that the first panel applied over the insulation compresses the insulation enough to maintain SNUG contact.

Ok, if I have 10 cm airgap and put 12 cm insulation that would work better?
Is it the same rule for the walls?
What if I put some sand (or similar), would it be a good solution?

Front of the CR - as you've drawn it, you will tend toward some horn loading of speakers; this will be better if changed so the baffle extension (soffit face) continues STRAIGHT toward the window as I've shown.

So I could make the window larger (so it is at level with the sofit)?

Didn't see any framing or a garage, I'll need to get more time on that.

it is in studiobasement2.skp file

Your placement of more mass to the outer leaf is fine; and depending on the amount of isolation you need, I'd consider either 20mm MDF or 2 layers 12.5mm plasterboard to be MINIMAL for either inner or outer leaf... Steve

ok. I worrie about the capacity of the roof framing to handle the weight. Any advise?
Do you know fermacell? is it anygood for the purpouse?

Thanks for your time, I will work on it waiting on your answers.
I really do appreciate your help!

Mike

[Mr. Nemo]

Things are taking shape, getting a clearer view of the project. Thanks to this forum and the experiences shared here!

Working on the sofit plan now.

Considering the height of the room where the speaker will be (218 cm = 7.15 foot) it make the problem a bit complicated.

If I make it the traditional way (sae handbook) I find myself with no space towards the ceiling to build a box around the speaker because of the fixation reaching too high. So I found a way around bye putting the fixation lower so I can make the box and keep the space above for the isolation. (file: sofit1)

I also made another possibility as shown on sofit2 that would be easier to build and close to what I have seen around the different studio pics on the forum.

I would tend to go for the second solution. Build a box for the speakers. Angle the box and all this above a mdf or marble base.

For the angle I think of using wood and rubber pad where there is contact.

I am not sure if the solution for the angle is a good one, any suggestion?
Is there anything I missed that I should be aware of?
Any other suggestion is welcome..

thanks

Mike

[kendale]

Aloha Mike,

Just wondering, how were you planning to keep your monitors from falling out of your soffits at that angle? Were you planning to strap them down, perhaps?

Aloha